[Mk2] [Turbo] Is this parts list good for 500-ish BHP?

[Wingers]

I'm putting together a list of parts needed to turn a std rev1 engine into a 400-500hp monster.

I'm thinking of doing this over the summer months but want to work out exactly wha's involved and how much it's going to cost before I really bite the bullet.
So far I have the following list. Is there anything else that you 500hp guys think I've missed?

Bottom end:
CP pistons 86.5mm
Eagle rods
Toga oil pump
upgraded bearings (brand???)

Head/Valvetrain:
ARP studs
Ported head
HKS 264 Cams
HKS cam gears
ferrera +1mm oversized valves
valve springs (ATS)
I also want under bucket style shims but haven't worked out what for I need for this yet.

Other:
LINK G3 LEM
800cc injectors
Walbro 255 fuel pump
New manifold & Turbo (???)
I/C (brand???)

Having read up on this a fair bit now, I'm planning to run 8.5:1 compression ratio so will find a head gasket to suit.
My target is to have an engine capable of about 500hp with a redline of 8500. What i actually use it for will depend on the turbo i choose. Turbo selection is whole other story though so for now I want to leave that out of this thread.

A few questions that i have:

Which brand components to go for where i've not specified (or any that you think i've chosen the wrong brands).
Can i fit 800cc injectors into the std rev1 fuel rail?
Will a SMIC will be up to the job or should i plan to run a ST205 CC from the beginning? (I don't like the idea of boot mounted IC)
What's the best plan regarding inlet manifold? Can the std manifold be made to work or will it always oversupply cylinders 2&3?

Cheers,

Wingers

[RyanRs]

ACL, King, Clivette bearings will do fine mate.

personally i would be using atleast 1000cc injectors.

800's will fit in the rev1 rail BUT the rev 1 rail will not flow enough fuel.

Turbo wise you want to be looking toward a gt35r.. you could make 500 rwhp with a 3076r but you will need to be using higher octane fuel + high level of boost.

For 400-450 whp, then by all means, gt3076r

at 500whp, the Phenoix power SMIC will be close to its limits , and that ic is the best SMIC you can get -its even better than the 205 CC.. this is only rated to 450bhp (fly i think)

You need to think about an uprated CC or even a BMIC (best option)

i would scrap the rev1 manifold and get an RMR item. TVIS must be completley gone too as it causes restriction if left in there.

personally, if you are going to go to these lengths , i would use a stroker bottom end, 86.5mm pistons with a 91mm 5sfe crankshaft. the extra 140cc will definatly help with torque and spool.

good luck mate

[Harry]

Sounds like a good plan^^^

[Wingers]

Some useful info there ryan - cheers

As stated, i don't want to go too far into turbo choice yet but your comments mirror my thoughts pretty well. At the moment, I'm swinging towards the 3076 mostly for faster spool but i'll make that call later.

How far do you think a rev1 rail could go? or 800cc injectors for that matter? What if i raised the rail pressure?

Also, what is an RMR manifold - I haven't heard of that before?
TVIS will be removed.

I've considered a stroker kit but thought that they cost a bit much for 140cc really. I'll have another look around but for £1500-2000 i wasn't convinced it was worth the money. Has anyone got any back-to-back data or even dyno plots from different cars?

Cheers,

Wingers

[lockys96]

uprate ure fuel lines too.

[mattcambs]

If you're dead against a BMIC, then a Rogue Radtech CC is probably the best side mount there is.

For 8500rpm would a lightened flywheel to go with a fully balanced bottom end be recommended?

Uprated clutch?

In my opinion 500+ bhp is going to be very peaky in a 2 litre. Is this for a drag car? If so then surely better to run a GT35 in its comfort zone rather than a GT30 at its limits?

[Gary ST165]

I'm putting together a list of parts needed to turn a std rev1 engine into a 400-500hp monster.

I'm thinking of doing this over the summer months but want to work out exactly wha's involved and how much it's going to cost before I really bite the bullet.
So far I have the following list. Is there anything else that you 500hp guys think I've missed?

hi Wingers

for nearer 500 hp i would be looking to add the following parts and costs to your list:


thermostatic oil cooler

oil filter relocation

egt

wideband o2

a whole array of temp and pressure sensors/senders and alarms to monitor your huge investment.




budget extra to implement safe shut down / retard strategies on the ecu. for when temps / pressures are outside safe parameters >>> insurance so you don't blow it up!

budget for frequent oil changes

budget for annual top n bottom end engine inspection. boost / power = increased wear. expect to replace the big end bearing shells on a yearly basis.

budget for increased car insurance premiums.

good luck matey.






whos gonna build it? add that to the budget

then consider brakes, suspension, transmission running gear hubs etc. (unless of course you have done this already in preparation. apologies i haven't followed any of your previous threads))

[Wingers]

uprate ure fuel lines too.

Good point, I kind of had £1000 in mind for complete fuel system so injectors, pump etc. I guess the lines need to be included here!

For 8500rpm would a lightened flywheel to go with a fully balanced bottom end be recommended?

Uprated clutch?

Yep - forgot to mention these, was planning on uprated clutch already and probably flywheel too. The £250 for a flywheel isn't really significant when it comes to a 5k build

In my opinion 500+ bhp is going to be very peaky in a 2 litre. Is this for a drag car? If so then surely better to run a GT35 in its comfort zone rather than a GT30 at its limits?

It's currently a 260bhp daily driver but I would have to reconsider that once it's got this motor in it. It's as much a project for me as anything right now.

for nearer 500 hp i would be looking to add the following parts and costs to your list:


thermostatic oil cooler

That's strange, I was discussing an oil cooler today with my housemates. Not sure if this is overkill or not, what do other ppl do about this?

oil filter relocation

What's the benefit here?

egt

Yeah - I like that idea. Any recomendations of where to get one?

wideband o2

Already have one

a whole array of temp and pressure sensors/senders and alarms to monitor your huge investment.

I think knock sensor, wideband and egt sensors will have this pretty well covered. I guess oil pressure and/or temp could be added. Again any recomendations?

budget extra to implement safe shut down / retard strategies on the ecu. for when temps / pressures are outside safe parameters >>> insurance so you don't blow it up!

Shouldn't be a problem with an aftermarket ecu.

budget for frequent oil changes

budget for annual top n bottom end engine inspection. boost / power = increased wear. expect to replace the big end bearing shells on a yearly basis.

budget for increased car insurance premiums.

I guess so but ongoing "small" costs so i should be able to handle that.

then consider brakes, suspension, transmission running gear hubs etc. (unless of course you have done this already in preparation. apologies i haven't followed any of your previous threads))

I'm planning a rev3+ LSD box but if i do decide to go for a big power turbo then will get uprated driveshafts and cv's. Anything else needed?

Until it's up and running properly and i'm tracking it a lot then i'm not too worried about brakes. I'm a firm believer of small, well maintained systems when it comes to road brakes. Rev2+ but not planning on big aftermarket jobbies out of the box.

whos gonna build it? add that to the budget

Yours truly - isn't that half the fun

This is a really useful thread guys, keep the good info coming

Wingers

[steve b]

I've an air to air oil cooler on my Eunos, its stabilised the engine core temp where a high volume alloy rad couldn't. If I was building a high power MR2 i'd say its a neccessary. Where you find oil temps rising is on periods of sustained boost, so if your only drag racing then I guess theres no need, if its going to be a track car then different story.

[RyanRs]

i have been recommended Os Giken twin plate clutch kit for my gt35r stroker build..

these apparently hold more clamping force than the top of range single plate rps max clutch, but the pedal feels as light as stock. it also comes with a lightweight flywheel. They are £1000... but by time you spend £280 on say a fidenza then £400 on a lesser clutch that wont last 1/2 as long, your almost at £1000 anyway!

As for the oil cooler... I see these as overkill. unless you intend to use the car on a circuit , where you maintain high rpms for a long time, then i don't see the point.. Cooling the oil when its not needed will cause the oil to drop below its optimum operating temperature.

[JeffD]

Think you would love this book - one of the project vehicles is takig a 1990 turbo from 200 to 600bhp. Discusses each stage in loads of detail along with dyno graphs, details of what was added/removed at each stage to get the next power gain.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Modify-Manageme ... 030&sr=8-1

If you have the amazon "search inside" feature available go to back of book then "previous page" a few times you can read the article without even having to buy book - worth buying anyway though since its only about £15

Regards Jeff

[Wingers]

just bought it - Thanks for the link

Wingers

[salamanzer]

@ 50RHWP i wouldnt be looking at a 2.2L not on a 3STGE block, if your going to stroke the engine i would go with a 5SFE block, else you can budget in a block replacement every so often.

GT35R is fine, if i wasn't looking to run more than 500RWHP then thats what i would get.

When you buy a clutch you base it on its torque handling, not its BHP value. Look at other cars with a similar spec and see what torque they are putting down, myself i would get a carbon/carbon clutch, it will outlive the engine and will handle more power than your engine could throw at it.

Please bear in mind, my OS triple plate rattles like hell, on a daily driver it may become annoying.

Yes and get at least oil pressure, oil temp and EGT gauges, boost and maybe water temp.

[RyanRs]

@ 50RHWP i wouldnt be looking at a 2.2L not on a 3STGE block, if your going to stroke the engine i would go with a 5SFE block, else you can budget in a block replacement every so often.

i cannot agree with this. its possible to make 600,700,800 bhp with just an unsleeved 1998cc block. there is no evidence to show that a 5sfe has any benefits over a stroked 3sgte. Rogue did a 5s-gte engine and come to the conclusion that for the extra work and money involved, its too much to justify any benifit over using a 3s-gte stroker. the walls may be stronger, but still not as strong as a sleeved 3s.. yes you can sleeve a 5s, but thats defeating the object of using a 5s block. also the 5s block is not even a true 2.2L meaning the CC increase of the 5sfe over a 91x86mm 3sgte stroker is less than 60c !

(* apologies if what i stated about rogues test are inaccurate)

[gts 400]

talk to simon at yvs services look up the web site his car is 600 bhp he works with fen sport and does all my mods the lot !! no frills no glossy mag crap just straight talk £35 an hour ! has worked on mr2 and celica forever!! when the cars go wrong from all the other places they go to him !! if you can afford it use motec! water injection, probably gt35r 272 cam for 8,500 revs 1000cc injectors or with 850cc you might get away with msd on fuel pump and run at 13volts ...? lots of work anyway good luck

http://www.yvsperformance.com/index.html

[salamanzer]

@ 50RHWP i wouldnt be looking at a 2.2L not on a 3STGE block, if your going to stroke the engine i would go with a 5SFE block, else you can budget in a block replacement every so often.

i cannot agree with this. its possible to make 600,700,800 bhp with just an unsleeved 1998cc block. there is no evidence to show that a 5sfe has any benefits over a stroked 3sgte. Rogue did a 5s-gte engine and come to the conclusion that for the extra work and money involved, its too much to justify any benifit over using a 3s-gte stroker. the walls may be stronger, but still not as strong as a sleeved 3s.. yes you can sleeve a 5s, but thats defeating the object of using a 5s block. also the 5s block is not even a true 2.2L meaning the CC increase of the 5sfe over a 91x86mm 3sgte stroker is less than 60c !

(* apologies if what i stated about rogues test are inaccurate)

If you are going to fit a stroker kit with 87mm pistons, you will at some point crack the block.

If you get a 3sgte engine and sleeve it, whats left of the cylinder walls is so thin, when you launch the car, the block twists and cracks.

You want more CC then get a 5sfe.

Look around the site, people have been cracking blocks at a mere 300RWHP. If your gonna spend the money then do it right the first time.

Im running that sort of power on 87mm pistons, and the block is ultimately a ticking time bomb.... it will crack!

[RyanRs]

thats why you dont use 87mm pistons!!

86.5mm pistons with a 91mm 5sfe crank will give you 2.139L which is only around 50cc less of a 5sfe.

but even so... belive it or not, a friend ,who is also a member on here, has 87.5mm pistons in an un-sleeved rev2 block !!!! he has been running these for years @300rwhp and has recently upgraded to a GT3076r ,making over 400rwhp..

yes i dont agree with anything over 86.5 but has his engine gone pop yet?!? NO! and the reason for that is because the person who mapped the car, Did it Correctly!!

blocks usually only crack as a result of det. yes, launching hard could do that possibly, but how many cases in the 3sgte have we seen of cracked blocks from launching?! most of the movement will be transferred into the engine mounts /axles / chassis anyway. And on top of that.. Who says he will be launching the crap out of his car anyway!!

people on the USA boards are achieving very good results on both 5s-gte and 3s-gte strokers, they are both neck on neck..but it seems most people will tell you the 3s-gte stroker is good enough and the 5sgte route is pointless, unless you like chucking your money away!!

[SFLee]

my new build is 87 mm , reason was HKs stroker only come in 87mm,
i also believe all down to mapping, beside, i only want to go 400BHP, 500 is hardly worth it, more likely trade low end to top end power,

and AfR is miss off that list, os giken twin plate is a good chioice, also you may want bigger brakes, and ats cv joint thingy (cannot remember what it was call) and hks or greddy super belt (strong timing belt)

[salamanzer]

my new build is 87 mm , reason was HKs stroker only come in 87mm.

Most off the shelf stroker kits are 87mm.

300rwhp is a different to 500+

I agree a good degree of mapping helps in keeping the block together, this i totally agree

launching hard could do that possibly

l said the block can crack due to being sleeved when launched hard.

I have been looking into many of the problems these blocks have.... and you see the same ones come up quite often. I agree with you 87mm pistons are not a good idea - my engine had them already.

If you are aiming for 500+ then i would be inclined not to stroke the engine, and spend some time getting a turbo most suited to the power output you require, and where possible run a proper twin scroll setup, full race do an excellent kit, with either a GT30 or GT35.

[tonigmr2]

Just to re-visit the injectors. 800cc is stretching it, whatever else you bolt onto the engine to support them. At 420bhp at the hubs, my 800s were virtually maxed out. As a result had to upgrade to 1000ccs and an HKS fuel rail.

T