Suspension geometry help please!

[Soupasam]

First off, I'm sorry if this has been covered! I know this is a well covered topic and I have searched but I cannot find the exact information I need so I was wondering if you guys could help

I will be lending my brother my car on thursday to take to his college. In return he will be setting up the geometry for me while he's there.

What I would like information on is the best settings for completely standard suspension. To my knowledge the suspension is original (65,000 miles.) and still feels good. I would like to dial out the undesteer as much as possible so I can have some fun on the track. A couple of months back I did an autosolo and had real trouble as the front kept washing out. I've since bought some 15" Rotas and some Proxes and it seems impossible to get the rear to step out. (Im not going to try chucking it into corners on public roads....) I have seen the TRD settings and understand that these are for uprated and lowered suspension. At the moment I am not prepared to spend the money and time on new suspension but I would like to make the most of what I already have!

Thanks for any help

[kevin..in]

TRD suspension geometry here

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=45035

[Soupasam]

I was under the impression that the TRD geometry settings are for uprated and lowered suspension.... Is this correct?

[jimi]

Sam
Here's some info from a TRD preparation guide

Phase One: STREET PERFORMANCE

Results: Slight decrease in ride quality, improved handling,
improved braking 10-15 hp increase.

TRD Springs
TRD Adjustable Sway bars
TRD Low pressure gas strut inserts
TRD Brake pads
TRD Brake line kit (drain and install ford type fluid)
TRD Header and Exhaust System
High Flow Air filter
Recalibrate fuel injection system (See Engine Preparation Section)

Reset alignment:

Camber Front: -1 degree
Camber Rear : -1 "

Caster : +6 "

Toe in Front: 1/16 in.
Toe in rear : 1/8 in.


Phase Two: AUTO CROSS, STREET PERFORMANCE AND ROAD RACE
(Dependent upon class restrictions)

RESULTS: Decrease in ride quality (lowers ride height 1.5-2 in.),
dramatically improved handling, improved braking.

Instead of phase one equipment:

TRD High pressure gas struts
TRD Springs

Reset Alignment:

Camber Front: -2 degrees
Camber Rear : -1 1/2 degrees

Caster : +6 degrees

Toe in front: 1/16 in. ( 1/8 in. out for auto cross)
Toe in rear : 1/8 in. ( 1/16 in. out for auto cross)

All phase one Modifications, Plus:

TRD Urethane Bushings
" Front and Rear strut tower braces
" Negative camber blocks
" Front and Rear adjustable camber kits
" Engine Modifications ( see Engine Modifications section)
" Light weight fly wheel
" Heavy Duty Clutch
" LSD
" Performance Ratio Ring and pinion Set
" Close ratio transmission gear set

Phase two mentions some settings for auto cross ( which I asume to be the US style auto cross, not the Euro style of autocross ) This may be of some use to you
hth
Jimi

[Soupasam]

Cheers for the help guys. The TRD prep involves different springs and lower ride height though. I was wondering if the settings are the same or similar for a car with completely stock suspension??
Has anyone set up their standard car to get more oversteer?

I may do some more autocross type stuff but I am mainly looking to do some trackdays on castle combe.

[Jim-SR]

if your car is standard then set it to the following...

front toe = 1.4mm toe-in (on std 14" wheels. for every inch larger, add 0.1mm, e.g. 15" will be 1.5mm)
front camber = 1.5 degs (negative, e.g. top of the wheel is further in)
front castor = as much positive as you can get, make sure both sides are the same

rear toe = 3mm toe-in (on 14" wheels, add 0.2mm for every inch larger, e.g. 15" will be 3.2mm)
rear camber = 1.5 degs (negative)
rear castor = set both sides to the same somewhere around where they currently are. unless youve got accurate means of measuring it, you cant set it accurately. and its less critical on the rear

if youre getting a garage or an alignment place to do it, ask them how accurately their equipment measures, and how accurately they set it. unless they can set the toes to within 0.25mm and the cambers to within 0.1 degrees then find somewhere else. you get what you pay for, a £100 alignment will always be inferior to a properly priced one, and the going rate is about £200-250

also you will be charged by the hour for time it takes to free up seized bolts. make sure you free them all up yourself first. and your rear tie bars will almost certainly be seized, so if they are, get replacements before hand twos'r'us sell better-than-std ones for £125 or something. ive priced up my own and theirs arent that bad value, ball joints and rod ends cost quite a lot, and toyota standard tie bars are more expensive i beleive. so theyre about the cheapest option!

[Soupasam]

Thanks very much for the info Jim-SR. I really appreciate it!
I will be getting my brother to tackle the job for me. I think his college has just bought a complete laser alignment kit, including a £1500 camber guage! Apparently its pretty good, just gotta see if my brother can work it!

Will I definately need new tie bars? or is it possible to free up the old ones?

Thanks again

[mad man dan]

Jim> I'm interested in how you've come up with these settings. Are they your own?

[Jim-SR]

pretty much just the TRD settings tweaked a little to account for stock suspension. you can probably improve it a bit with more experimentation, but its some settings ive used which worked well

[Lauren]

TRD suspension geometry here

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=45035

they won't help the understeer.

Run some toe out on the front and reduce rear toe from stock settings. That ought to help.

Suspension will be tired if its original though.

[Soupasam]

Ok i'm confused now I thought that more front toe in would reduce the understeer? Can anyone clarify please

[Lauren]

Ok i'm confused now I thought that more front toe in would reduce the understeer? Can anyone clarify please

Well the mk1s certainly understeer anyway, but on the race cars we ran with some toe-out that really helped reduce the understeer.

More toe-in won't help the situation. Been there done that. Its a safe setup that works really well in the wet at the expense of dry handling.

[Jim-SR]

TRD suspension geometry here

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=45035

they won't help the understeer.

Run some toe out on the front and reduce rear toe from stock settings. That ought to help.

Suspension will be tired if its original though.

do this if you want horrendous snap oversteer!!!

toe the rear in more, and keep the front toed in. if youre getting turn in understeer then youre almost certainly getting oversteer on exit too if youre driving it properly. go stiffer on the springs and get some decent dampers on there and toe-in all round will work for you

the only time id recommend toe out on the front is on the race track, but thats a completely different story to the road. glass smooth surfaces and room for errors, as opposed to bumpy english roads and other cars waiting around every corner!!

[Soupasam]

Thanks for your help Lauren and Jim

As I use my MK1 as a daily driver I think i'm going to use Jims settings as a base and try them on a track. I'll be able to try the toe out settings if the toeing in isnt working for me on the track... It's quite handy that my brothers college is based at Castle Combe circuit so i'll be able to make adjustments between sessions

Thanks again for the help

[Lauren]

Thanks for your help Lauren and Jim

As I use my MK1 as a daily driver I think i'm going to use Jims settings as a base and try them on a track. I'll be able to try the toe out settings if the toeing in isnt working for me on the track... It's quite handy that my brothers college is based at Castle Combe circuit so i'll be able to make adjustments between sessions

Thanks again for the help

Sounds like a good plan Sam. I've tried stock, TRD and toe out setttings out on track. Suck it and see what you think. FWIW as Jim says starting with a toe-in setup is a much safer bet(!).