[All] [Generic] putting a bit of methanol in the tank to help lean out AFR's?

[jimGTS]

came across some interesting info on the US forums, some folk have taken to running a few litres of methanol in there tank to lean out the AFRs to more suitable levels while still running a stock ecu, which is widely known to run very rich on boost. Also a good way to help combat det.

anyone tried it?
if your aware of it, but not keen, why not?

[ashley]

My understanding is that it will not stay mixed with petrol which is why you need to inject it seperately

[bobhatton]

My understanding is that it will not stay mixed with petrol which is why you need to inject it seperately

That is right, it will also pick up water.
But doing it this way it is going to make the engine run richer.

Get a drum of E85 and some of add that

[jimGTS]

where to source e85?

i just thought it worth a go, wheres the harm


btw, i do have a water/meth kit lined up

[bobhatton]

where to source e85?

i just thought it worth a go, wheres the harm


btw, i do have a water/meth kit lined up

http://www.econol.co.uk/?gclid=CKCuqOjz ... tAodJEYA5g

Remember water injection only works in the combustion chamber by absorbing heat and lowering the pressure to stop detonation. If the engine is not detonating your power will drop. It gives no cooling to the inlet air. Injection point should be as close to the inlet valve in each manifold runner.

Methanol injection is a fuel and does nothing the same as water injection.
with methanol your injection point can be back up the manifold runner but should be fitted into each one not one injector by the throttle body.
You will get some cooling of the inlet air and an increase in fuel octane.

Never get methanol on your skin, it is absorbed into the body and stored, your body does not get rid of it. Too much and it will kill you.

[jimGTS]

ill be installing single injector just after the ic.

50/50 mix.

im only looking to increase octane a tad to help protect engine at the 17/18psi i want to run. im sure with a mix like that cooler intake temps will help also.

[jimGTS]

where to source e85?

i just thought it worth a go, wheres the harm


btw, i do have a water/meth kit lined up

http://www.econol.co.uk/?gclid=CKCuqOjz ... tAodJEYA5g

.

btw, is this where you source it from and use this exact product?
could i get away with putting in a few ltrs per tank per fill up?

[bobhatton]

where to source e85?

i just thought it worth a go, wheres the harm


btw, i do have a water/meth kit lined up

http://www.econol.co.uk/?gclid=CKCuqOjz ... tAodJEYA5g

.

btw, is this where you source it from and use this exact product?
could i get away with putting in a few ltrs per tank per fill up?

We do not use it but I think it is just what you are looking for.

"To us in the UK bioethanol is a rather unheard of fuel source; this is due to the lack of publicity that the fuel receives. In fact we use bioethanol virtually every day. Bioethanol is added to petrol as an additive to help reduce the amount of oil consumed, the current use is approximately 5% which is set to increase in the future. There are some cars available which run on a mix of bioethanol called E85 which consists of 85% ethanol and 15% petrol, however there are unfortunately limited pumps to use."

[T.F.S.]

where to source e85?

i just thought it worth a go, wheres the harm


btw, i do have a water/meth kit lined up

http://www.econol.co.uk/?gclid=CKCuqOjz ... tAodJEYA5g

Remember water injection only works in the combustion chamber by absorbing heat and lowering the pressure to stop detonation. If the engine is not detonating your power will drop. It gives no cooling to the inlet air. Injection point should be as close to the inlet valve in each manifold runner.

Methanol injection is a fuel and does nothing the same as water injection.
with methanol your injection point can be back up the manifold runner but should be fitted into each one not one injector by the throttle body.
You will get some cooling of the inlet air and an increase in fuel octane.

Never get methanol on your skin, it is absorbed into the body and stored, your body does not get rid of it. Too much and it will kill you.

Why do you keep spouting this stuff?

WI does cool the intake charge, just not as well as meth will.

[bobhatton]

Why do you keep spouting this stuff?

Because I know what I am talking about and you have not got a clue.

[T.F.S.]

So we inject some water before the turbo, it changes phase and yet you believe that no energy is used in the process, and you say I am clueless...Dear god.

[kennym]

Same two people same subject same result, why?

Prove your respective arguments or agree to differ,

No offence to either but your past rudeness to each other detracts from you both.

[ashley]

Same two people same subject same result, why?

Prove your respective arguments or agree to differ,

No offence to either but your past rudeness to each other detracts from you both.

[T.F.S.]

Its common knowledge that injecting water will cool the intake charge until the charge reaches 100% RH, this is due to evaporative cooling

The cooling effect is achieved when you change the state of the liquid to a gas as most of the heat energy is used to do this state change

Please see Charles's law.

Quote:
MaCpT1 + MwHf = MaCpT3 + MwHg

T1=124C, T2=25C, T3=final Cp=Specific heat of air=1.005
Ma=mass of air/s, Mw=mass of water/s,
Hf=Enthalpy of sat liquid, Hg=Enthalpy of sat vapour
(obtained from steam tables)

Air mass=8.64/60 = 0.144Kg/s. We need to guess the final temperature of the mixture to look up tables:

Let T3=(T1+T2)/2 =74.5°C. say 75°C.

From the steam tables:
Hg @75°C = 2635.3 kJ/kg Saturated vapour
Hf @25°C= 105kJ/Kg Saturated liquid

re-arrange the equation:
MaCp(T1-T3)= Mw(Hg-Hf)
to:
T3= 124-(2635.3-105)/(0.144*1.005)Mw = 17547Mw

Substitute Mw to obtain final temperature:

For Mw=0.00333Kg/s (200ml/min): T3=124-57.91=66.09°C
For Mw=0.00417kg/s (250ml/min): T3=124-73.12=50.88°C
For Mw=0.00500kg/s (300ml/min): T3=124-87.74=36.27°C

[jimGTS]

MaCpT1 + MwHf = MaCpT3 + MwHg

T1=124C, T2=25C, T3=final Cp=Specific heat of air=1.005
Ma=mass of air/s, Mw=mass of water/s,
Hf=Enthalpy of sat liquid, Hg=Enthalpy of sat vapour
(obtained from steam tables)

Air mass=8.64/60 = 0.144Kg/s. We need to guess the final temperature of the mixture to look up tables:

Let T3=(T1+T2)/2 =74.5°C. say 75°C.

From the steam tables:
Hg @75°C = 2635.3 kJ/kg Saturated vapour
Hf @25°C= 105kJ/Kg Saturated liquid

re-arrange the equation:
MaCp(T1-T3)= Mw(Hg-Hf)
to:
T3= 124-(2635.3-105)/(0.144*1.005)Mw = 17547Mw

Substitute Mw to obtain final temperature:

For Mw=0.00333Kg/s (200ml/min): T3=124-57.91=66.09°C
For Mw=0.00417kg/s (250ml/min): T3=124-73.12=50.88°C
For Mw=0.00500kg/s (300ml/min): T3=124-87.74=36.27°C

everyone knows that! Jeeez

[ashley]

By evaporating water into the inlet tract are we not displacing air, and by doing that reducing the amount of fuel we can burn, and so reducing the energy in the cylinders? I don't know- just trying to work out what effect the steam has other than apparently reducing the inlet temp.

[jasongtr]

Same two people same subject same result, why?

Prove your respective arguments or agree to differ,

No offence to either but your past rudeness to each other detracts from you both.

same xxxx different day

[bobhatton]

By evaporating water into the inlet tract are we not displacing air, and by doing that reducing the amount of fuel we can burn, and so reducing the energy in the cylinders? I don't know- just trying to work out what effect the steam has other than apparently reducing the inlet temp.

Water will never boil in the inlet manifold, so we will never get steam.
Water expands by 1600 times its volume when changing into steam so would displace large amounts of air

[ashley]

By evaporating water into the inlet tract are we not displacing air, and by doing that reducing the amount of fuel we can burn, and so reducing the energy in the cylinders? I don't know- just trying to work out what effect the steam has other than apparently reducing the inlet temp.

Water will never boil in the inlet manifold, so we will never get steam.
Water expands by 1600 times its volume when changing into steam so would displace large amounts of air

Evaporation and boiling are not the same thing- evaporation can happen at any temperature can it not? I'm not talking about boiling water, when we inject water into the inlet tract it was my understanding that it evaporates and it is this process that takes heat out of the inlet air...or have i completely misunderstood?

It then makes me ask as to whether the evaporated water displaces air and leads to a reduction in air available for combustion?

[bobhatton]

Its common knowledge that injecting water will cool the intake charge until the charge reaches 100% RH, this is due to evaporative cooling

This is the wrong "knowledge" being past around the internet. Just because its on the net does not make it right.

Read some papers on the subject.