Rev1 & Rev2 Turbo 440cc Injectors Capabilities

[Turbonoz]

Not been on for a while but keep reading posts where people believe the stock 440cc injectors are at their limits on the CT26

They do not "max out" at 15psi, 16psi or at any amount of boost a CT26 can actually throw at them. They are good for a safe 330bhp all day long, the same as all the other 440cc injectors on all the other 2L 4cyl turbo applications

Jeff Hartman, an author on engine management from the States measured 335rwhp (yes yes, we all know USA horses are steroid freaks) before needing to fit 550cc injectors in his MR2 3SGTE case study. I have personally run 1.5 bar on a stock CT26 with 440cc injectors and the following spec:

CT26 @ 1.5 bar (22psi)
Uprated 255lph fuel pump
Stock FPR
Stock fuel pressure
Stock fuel rail
Boot mount intercooler
GReddy Profec B Spec2
Stock Rev2 ECU
AFR at WOT: consistent mid 11s

I've run 1.5 bar on a T3 with 444 JECS injectors on a 1.8 CA18DET. 350+bhp and 1.4 bar on a T34 on 2L YB with Bosch 803 green 390cc injectors. 382bhp@hubs with 510cc Evo injectors running at 2.7 bar giving an equivalent 484cc again on a 1.8 CA18DET. That's about 430bhp. On a 1.8.... Different injector types & engines, but you get the idea.

440s are just fine, no need to worry about them. If you're running lean on a CT26 or CT20, it is not because your stock injectors are "maxing out". Check your fuel pressure, FPR, fuel pump, fuel filter, base timing, check for actual faulty injectors and change the fuel rail.

[T.F.S.]

Yep, just another misconception eh.

[moscoworbust]

I would like to know what other mods he had on that.

i.e. internals, down pipe, exhaust. I think we can assume he had exhaust and downpipe uprated.

I 'm wondering if i should replace HG, or wait until it blows. Which is pretty stupid IMO

[T.F.S.]

If it blows you just replace it...its not like it breaks anything else when it goes eh.

I find it odd that people replace it before they have an issue TBH.

[Steve-O 2007]

ffs so I could have safely turned my Greddy TD05 upto 1.5bar along with my uprated HG and ST205 CC etc???

I was always told to stay at 0.9 - 1 bar or I would max them out

[jimGTS]

i see no mention of duty cycles there??

yep, am sure they can make 330hp, ive seen someone make 280whp with some even in the uk (dont know about there fuel pressure tho)
but at what duty cycles??

some say you shouldnt run more than 80% duty cycle (to keep injectors safe? im not 100% why exactly), but those 335rwhp numbers, or even 330flywheel hp numbers would be at more than 80% duty cycle IMO.

is anything really wrong with running at 85-90-100% duty cycle, i wouldnt like to say, but am sure its done alot, but it is why many upgrade injectors as some tuners dont like to map past 80%. and 80% on 440s i dout would 330hp imo.

i personally went to 540s for 300hp on my old rev2 with pfc (rev3 ecu conversion).

interesting thread tho.

[moscoworbust]

This is the book:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RYsg ... is&f=false


starts on page 223.

[Turbonoz]

i see no mention of duty cycles there??

yep, am sure they can make 330hp, ive seen someone make 280whp with some even in the uk (dont know about there fuel pressure tho)
but at what duty cycles??

some say you shouldnt run more than 80% duty cycle (to keep injectors safe? im not 100% why exactly), but those 335rwhp numbers, or even 330flywheel hp numbers would be at more than 80% duty cycle IMO.

is anything really wrong with running at 85-90-100% duty cycle, i wouldnt like to say, but am sure its done alot, but it is why many upgrade injectors as some tuners dont like to map past 80%. and 80% on 440s i dout would 330hp imo.

i personally went to 540s for 300hp on my old rev2 with pfc (rev3 ecu conversion).

interesting thread tho.

Overheating the injector solenoids. I can definitely see the 80% limit as a Good Idea on a dedicated track car that spends 100% of its time at WOT running lots of boost. Fair enough there. But on a road car....

Some Hondas run at 100% at WOT from the factory. I've run so many injectors over 80% and never once had a failure. My daily driver 300zx runs a reported 94% duty on the 20 yr old 370cc side feeds. It has done for a year and has seen plenty of drag strip and live mapping action.

There's nothing wrong with running bigger injectors, my MR2 has 900cc fitted and doesn't get anywhere near a high duty, it's just not a necessity swapping out the 440s until you would be looking to upgrade the other fuel system components IMO. I'd be more worried about the 20yr old fuel pump and restrictive fuel rail.

I don't get the Rev3 conversion either, I know it's relatively easy to do using all OEM parts, but I can't understand why people don't just fit a half-decent 2nd hand standalone system for the same amount of cash and a lot less time messing around. When you figure the cost of the Power FC into it, it seems really counter-productive & expensive. The stock ECU is mappable, but no one appears to be pursuing it

[jimGTS]

i too dont hear any "my injector broke" threads, infact i dont think ive ever read one on the mr2 forums in the many years ive been a member.

when i went pfc route, linkG3s were barely on the market, very very few were using them on the mr2 5+years ago (in uk).
pfcs were readily available, lots mapped them, so to use one i had to do the conversion.

even going to a link, you still require some parts to make it work? fit map sensor, ait sensor in the manifold etc, remove afm, replace it with something.

there isnt a great deal of work in the rev3 ecu conversion, only the rewiring you need to be careful.

to run with a pfc on rev1/2, you only need ignitor, mat and map sensor and to rewire ecu (free)...you dont "need" anything else to make it work.
those items are not expensive at all.

some people choose to fit rev3+ fpr, o2 sensors, 540s, ecu, you dont need any of these to work wit the rev3+ pfc.

so really, theres very little difference fitting a pfc to a link.
pfc will always work out cheaper to source, and usually comes with the commander, which is great imo.

is it an old ecu, sure, is it capable, sure is for 98% of the community and there mods.

[sp00n]

I don't get the Rev3 conversion either, I know it's relatively easy to do using all OEM parts, but I can't understand why people don't just fit a half-decent 2nd hand standalone system for the same amount of cash and a lot less time messing around. When you figure the cost of the Power FC into it, it seems really counter-productive & expensive. The stock ECU is mappable, but no one appears to be pursuing it

i think i can answere that one this is all from my perspective.

I have very limited/no knowledge of after market ECU's or the work involved it fitting one. i would imagine lots of wiring etc. not something for the faint of heart or with limited knowledge etc .... i wouldnt even know where to begin with a stand alone system.

How ever the rev 3 conversion apeals to me as its just plug and play, no wiring issues (if you use a rev 3 loom) i am aware of. no dyno needed to setup etc. something i would attempt (and i am starting to collect the bits atm except the power FC)

remapping of the ecu sounds fantastic ...... but i have not yet found or heard off a vendor who dose it i guess its a limited market.

[Turbonoz]

i too dont hear any "my injector broke" threads, infact i dont think ive ever read one on the mr2 forums in the many years ive been a member.

when i went pfc route, linkG3s were barely on the market, very very few were using them on the mr2 5+years ago (in uk).
pfcs were readily available, lots mapped them, so to use one i had to do the conversion.

even going to a link, you still require some parts to make it work? fit map sensor, ait sensor in the manifold etc, remove afm, replace it with something.

there isnt a great deal of work in the rev3 ecu conversion, only the rewiring you need to be careful.

to run with a pfc on rev1/2, you only need ignitor, mat and map sensor and to rewire ecu (free)...you dont "need" anything else to make it work.
those items are not expensive at all.

some people choose to fit rev3+ fpr, o2 sensors, 540s, ecu, you dont need any of these to work wit the rev3+ pfc.

so really, theres very little difference fitting a pfc to a link.
pfc will always work out cheaper to source, and usually comes with the commander, which is great imo.

is it an old ecu, sure, is it capable, sure is for 98% of the community and there mods.

Agree with some of that mate (apart from the Commander being great and Power FCs being cheaper to source), but Link ECUs >>> Power FC, nowadays there are so many better options. I've seen Power FC prices ridiculously overpriced for the 3SGTE, although there is one guy that picked one up for £300 on another thread which is where they should be priced IMO, although he has also spunked £250 on Rev 3 conversion parts, so that is £550 right there and it's still not fitted....

They are still overpriced when compared to what else is on the market, just had a quick look on eBay and there aren't any 3SGTE Power FCs available, new ones for other models coming in at £700+. There are always people asking about Rev3 conversions and what needs to be bought & done etc etc, that kind of makes me think there is a lot of time & effort being wasted out there for no real gain. Sure, if you've got a Power FC kicking around, you may as well use it, but I personally wouldn't spend the money involved in order to have one in this day & age. Different 5 years ago as you said though

[Turbonoz]

I don't get the Rev3 conversion either, I know it's relatively easy to do using all OEM parts, but I can't understand why people don't just fit a half-decent 2nd hand standalone system for the same amount of cash and a lot less time messing around. When you figure the cost of the Power FC into it, it seems really counter-productive & expensive. The stock ECU is mappable, but no one appears to be pursuing it

i think i can answere that one this is all from my perspective.

I have very limited/no knowledge of after market ECU's or the work involved it fitting one. i would imagine lots of wiring etc. not something for the faint of heart or with limited knowledge etc .... i wouldnt even know where to begin with a stand alone system.

How ever the rev 3 conversion apeals to me as its just plug and play, no wiring issues (if you use a rev 3 loom) i am aware of. no dyno needed to setup etc. something i would attempt (and i am starting to collect the bits atm except the power FC)

remapping of the ecu sounds fantastic ...... but i have not yet found or heard off a vendor who dose it i guess its a limited market.

Yeah, very true! I do see the need for going for a Rev3 conversion once you hit the limits of the Rev1/2 fuel system, but you're still at the mercy of the stock ECU, so I don't think it provides that much of a usable gain. It's great getting rid of the MAF though.

As for the stock ECU, there is definitely a market there, NIStune which caters for stock Nissan ECUs is doing very well. I am able to custom map a large number of vehicles without the costs involved with fitting & setting up a standalone system. I've used it to control 1000cc injectors perfectly on a car that started with 370cc injectors. Wondeful support as well.

The Toyota ECUs are similar in a way to the 16bit Nissan ECUs insomuch as they would require an external daughterboard for the fueling & timing tables. The main difference is Nissan are great and allowed their ECUs to be run like this just by moving a jumper on the circuit board, whereas Toyota really really really did not want their ECUs being mapped by anyone. Ever!!! There is a guy on here that reverse-engineered the stock ECU though, and a group of guys were nearly there a few years back (may be the same person). Of course the Japanese can do it, but keep their cards close to their chest

[jimGTS]

im not sure how on earth someone could spend £250 on conversion parts unless they bought some new parts from toyota?
as said you only need maybe £80 werth of parts to make the pfc work on a rev1/2.
so really, £380 is pretty good going for a full standalone setup if you can source a pfc for £300.

commander unit i personally found was a good reason to go for a pfc as 9 times out of 10, people usually sell both together and it does give you a fair amount of information.

[Turbonoz]

im not sure how on earth someone could spend £250 on conversion parts unless they bought some new parts from toyota?
as said you only need maybe £80 werth of parts to make the pfc work on a rev1/2.
so really, £380 is pretty good going for a full standalone setup if you can source a pfc for £300.

commander unit i personally found was a good reason to go for a pfc as 9 times out of 10, people usually sell both together and it does give you a fair amount of information.

£380 is definitely good going for a standalone system, but we both know that the average 2nd hand 3SGTE Power FC is a great deal more than £300

I bought my 2nd hand Link G3 for less than £380, mind...

[jimGTS]

I bought my 2nd hand Link G3 for less than £380, mind...

you got a bargain as well then

[Turbonoz]

I bought my 2nd hand Link G3 for less than £380, mind...

you got a bargain as well then

Definitely

I saw them priced between £400 & £600 last time I looked. Again though, if the prices are comparable, there isn't really much in the Power FC's favour, if anything regarding fitting & capabilities on Rev1 & 2 cars where you still need to re-pin the ECU.

[zaid_mohamed]

yep im the guy who got the £300 PFC lol.
So i dont need the rest of the crap all!
all i needed was the MAP sensor, MAT sensor and ingniter!

anyways I got all parts below for total £250 Thats a bargin!
MAP sensor
IAT sensor
4wire 02 sensor
water temp sensor
knock sensor
igniter
st205 ECU
540 injectors
Walbro 255 fuel pump.

i was dead lucky on PFC tho

anyways as NOZ said above it still on fitted!

i need help fitting please help me a good fitter around london!

[jimGTS]

Well those are more bits than the conversion requires, could easily sell some if you wanted.
Walbro is handy, so to the 540s for that bit extra fuel.

Take it your making something custom to remove the afm? Not a huge deal, you can leave the afm in there (but not functioning) for the time being.

300 is a bargain, would recommend the commander to if you can get it.

[Odin_S]

Where do you all see these Link G3 prices? anytime i look for one its over a grand

[Turbonoz]

Where do you all see these Link G3 prices? anytime i look for one its over a grand

Not for a 2nd hand G3 model mate...

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic. ... t=link+ecu

link plus ecu c/w adaptor loom and seial link,loom currently pinned for rev1
never used as ive got pfc and just gathering dust
£250
£10 p&p uk mainland