MR2 Turbo VS Honda Integra Type R???

[mr2nut123]

Ive seen the GTR nurburgring lap and if a corvette with 505bhp can beat a GTR with 4wd and 480bhp rated (but i've heard its more near 500bhp standard!) then who cares what suspension it has, its clearly doing its job and thats extremely impressive. It must be the huge torque of the v8 but then again, I would have thought that the GTR would have great torque due to the massive turbos.

Erm, it wasnt the 505bhp Z06 that beat the GTR (GTR is faster), its the 600+bhp ZR1.

Even still, thats VERY impressive to beat that complex, unbelievably good electronic control with some dodgy old technology.

[Lauren]

Even still, thats VERY impressive to beat that complex, unbelievably good electronic control with some dodgy old technology.

It's fairly impressive, but the Ring has some very long straights where an extra 100bhp would come in very useful. On a track without those massive straights I wonder how it would compare then?

Still impressive or not, who's going to buy the corvette?

[mattcambs]

Still impressive or not, who's going to buy the corvette?

A shed load of Americans And a few Europeans who are are not bothered by the stigma attached to it's suspension setup.

[EarL]

Like Lauren, I've been lucky enough to own both and ITR and various models of MR2 (both MkI/MkII). I also am of the opinion that even though the MR2 is a great car, the ITR is without doubt, more of a drivers car.

Feedback, throttle response and handling are far superior to that of the MR2. However, I now drive an MR2 again as I see it, in MkII guise at least, as more of an all rounder in terms of every day drivability.

However, as I've been saying all along - and this is the root cause of why ITR's aren't as quick on the road as on track - the extra power the competition has over an ITR makes all the difference when you have to slow down.

Perhaps you could explain this a in a little more detail...

I was under the impression that ANY car would be quicker on the track, purely becaue of the conditions. Less traffic, controlled environment, etc.

Having now driven an ITR, if you're gonna rev it to 7k chances are you aint gonna stop till it gets close to 9!

That does make sense, but only to those that are not mechanically sympathetic. I moved back to an MR2 purely because of that fact. I'm fully aware that the magnificent Honda B18C motor is more than capable of revving to well over 9000 rpm quite reliably, but my head isn't, so the car went.

My V6 MR2 makes the around the same amount of peak power as the ITR, but makes a lot more torque at a vastly lower level in the rev range (2200 rpm). It wouldn't stand a chance around a track against an ITR though, not even with Lauren at the wheel.

EarL.

[BarronMR]

extra 100bhp

The link below suggests that the zr1 average bhp (atw) is usually about 95bhp more than GTR, obviously this varies with the handbuilt engines business.

this http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/24/corv ... -535-rwhp/

zr1 is also 200kgs lighter also.

[BarronMR]

My V6 MR2 makes the around the same amount of peak power as the ITR, but makes a lot more torque at a vastly lower level in the rev range (2200 rpm).

EarL.

I can confirm that in a mk2v6, in straight line (rolling) they seemed fairly equal, I pulled a little when out of the ITR's powerband but once on song no ground was made or lost.

I think a reasonably sorted mk1 with the v6, maybe with headwork, would be a different proposition, going on the basis a sorted mk1sc was good enough...

[stiggy]

Like Lauren, I've been lucky enough to own both and ITR and various models of MR2 (both MkI/MkII). I also am of the opinion that even though the MR2 is a great car, the ITR is without doubt, more of a drivers car.

Feedback, throttle response and handling are far superior to that of the MR2. However, I now drive an MR2 again as I see it, in MkII guise at least, as more of an all rounder in terms of every day drivability.

However, as I've been saying all along - and this is the root cause of why ITR's aren't as quick on the road as on track - the extra power the competition has over an ITR makes all the difference when you have to slow down.

Perhaps you could explain this a in a little more detail...

I was under the impression that ANY car would be quicker on the track, purely becaue of the conditions. Less traffic, controlled environment, etc.

Having now driven an ITR, if you're gonna rev it to 7k chances are you aint gonna stop till it gets close to 9!

That does make sense, but only to those that are not mechanically sympathetic. I moved back to an MR2 purely because of that fact. I'm fully aware that the magnificent Honda B18C motor is more than capable of revving to well over 9000 rpm quite reliably, but my head isn't, so the car went.

My V6 MR2 makes the around the same amount of peak power as the ITR, but makes a lot more torque at a vastly lower level in the rev range (2200 rpm). It wouldn't stand a chance around a track against an ITR though, not even with Lauren at the wheel.

EarL.

I agree, when I drove one last week I couldn't believe how loud and untamed it was for a standard car. Not much fun on motorways either, loud AND no power unless you drop a cog!

As both cars have to slow a lot more often on the road than they would on track, acceleration is a bigger advantage on the road than it is on the track. ITR's don't accelerate as quickly as the competition does, thus the track pace doesn't fully transfer to the road.

I didn't find revving it out too bad to be honest, with a 3k power band it's fairly easy to stay on cam. I found with ITRs, rather than cruising at 2-3k as you would in most 1.8 NA's I was at 3-4k. Even at 4k though, it's a little too lacking in torque for me for everyday use. It's fine when you're in the mood but sometimes you just want to be able to put your foot down, especially on the motorway.

[Lauren]

Still impressive or not, who's going to buy the corvette?

A shed load of Americans And a few Europeans who are are not bothered by the stigma attached to it's suspension setup.

Well merkins are always going to favour their homegrown archaic cars I guess. A few Euros might be daft enough too I suppose. I'm sorry I can't see beyond a 200 odd year old suspension design. No thanks.

[Lauren]

It wouldn't stand a chance around a track against an ITR though, not even with Lauren at the wheel.

EarL.

GLOL!

[Lauren]

I think a reasonably sorted mk1 with the v6, maybe with headwork, would be a different proposition, going on the basis a sorted mk1sc was good enough...

Don't forget you are comparing extensively modified cars with a standard car. Yes a highly modified SC (as Alex's was) was pretty close, but a standard SC, no chance.

Yes i'm sure you could pit an extensively modified MK1 to match a bone stock ITR, but then how long's a piece of string? But whatever you did to a mk1 it wouldn't have the chassis balance of an ITR.

[BarronMR]

but then how long's a piece of string? But whatever you did to a mk1 it wouldn't have the chassis balance of an ITR.

But its not going to cost me 5k, I was comparing what my limited money could get... If I could afford a fast oem car I would, but alas im a student.

I've alreay got chassis (tintop ex-sc), coilovers, rear brakes, engine + ancillaries, all gaskets for the head, g'box (tubby LSD), d'shafts and wheels.

And so far I'm at £1045 spent, so I could still afford for someone else to build it for me. If I build myself, I've got heads ported and a rotrex supercharger and plenty of power to make up for lack of cornering ability.

I know it'll never be a oem quality product but neither is the mk2v6, yet its just a better package than the previous mk2 I had.

As for chassis balance, every morning I've got a choice of a stock mk1 and the mk2v6, the mk1 is a better drive purely in terms of chassis but the extra performance, noise and engine in mk2v6 is too hard to ignore. That and the mk1 has blue interior lol. Sure balance is very important but its not the whole experience.

For me its bang for buck and a mk1 chassis is cheap, and can hopefully will handle 250 smooth v6 horses, or more *glances at forged pistons*.

[Mikey P MR2]

My mr2 when doing 70mph is faster than an Integra when its doing 60mph.

[GeoffC320]

Still impressive or not, who's going to buy the corvette?

A shed load of Americans And a few Europeans who are are not bothered by the stigma attached to it's suspension setup.

Well merkins are always going to favour their homegrown archaic cars I guess. A few Euros might be daft enough too I suppose. I'm sorry I can't see beyond a 200 odd year old suspension design. No thanks.

Didn't peg you as that ignorant Lauren. It may have leaf springs but it's also got double wishbones front & rear (in aluminium), magnetic damping control (which also adjusts squat and dive automatically) plus other goodies like composite brakes.

Hardly 200-year old technology now is it?

[johnp]

A shed load of Americans And a few Europeans who are are not bothered by the stigma attached to it's suspension setup.

Well merkins are always going to favour their homegrown archaic cars I guess. A few Euros might be daft enough too I suppose. I'm sorry I can't see beyond a 200 odd year old suspension design. No thanks.

Didn't peg you as that ignorant Lauren. It may have leaf springs but it's also got double wishbones front & rear (in aluminium), magnetic damping control (which also adjusts squat and dive automatically) plus other goodies like composite brakes.

Hardly 200-year old technology now is it?

Yes,that's broadly what I was going to say.Leaf springs have inherently more friction than coil springs and,I suppose,would not be at all suitable for a soft,long travel set up,but for a stiff short travel set up GM obviously thought it satisfactory, and it not as if they didn't have the resources to fit coils if they thought it beneficial.
As Geoff says ,it is a double wishbone independant set up,better than the current Civic type R for instance.

[mr2lad]

Well merkins are always going to favour their homegrown archaic cars I guess, and yes, i'm aware that that's a stereotype/generalisation but hey why would i want to practice what I preach? A few Euros might be daft enough too I suppose. I'm sorry I can't see beyond a 200 odd year old suspension design. No thanks.

There, fixed it for you....

[Slarty]

Didn't peg you as that ignorant Lauren.

No? I've had Lauren down as arrogant from day one.

Oh sorry you said ignorant. Yes, that too.

I'm sorry I can't see beyond a 200 odd year old suspension design. No thanks.

The wheel pre dates that by several years, yet does the job just fine. If it works and all that....

[Lauren]

Didn't peg you as that ignorant Lauren. It may have leaf springs but it's also got double wishbones front & rear (in aluminium), magnetic damping control (which also adjusts squat and dive automatically) plus other goodies like composite brakes.

Hardly 200-year old technology now is it?

Has it really got double wishbones? I stand corrected. I'm just wondering how that would work with leaf springs. What a weird setup.

Sorry as you've probably guessed i've never been a fan of american cars.

[Lauren]

My mr2 when doing 70mph is faster than an Integra when its doing 60mph.

Hmm my panda doing 71mph is faster than your MR2. I'm missing your point.

[Lauren]

But its not going to cost me 5k, I was comparing what my limited money could get... If I could afford a fast oem car I would, but alas im a student.

I've alreay got chassis (tintop ex-sc), coilovers, rear brakes, engine + ancillaries, all gaskets for the head, g'box (tubby LSD), d'shafts and wheels.

And so far I'm at £1045 spent, so I could still afford for someone else to build it for me. If I build myself, I've got heads ported and a rotrex supercharger and plenty of power to make up for lack of cornering ability.

I know it'll never be a oem quality product but neither is the mk2v6, yet its just a better package than the previous mk2 I had.

As for chassis balance, every morning I've got a choice of a stock mk1 and the mk2v6, the mk1 is a better drive purely in terms of chassis but the extra performance, noise and engine in mk2v6 is too hard to ignore. That and the mk1 has blue interior lol. Sure balance is very important but its not the whole experience.

For me its bang for buck and a mk1 chassis is cheap, and can hopefully will handle 250 smooth v6 horses, or more *glances at forged pistons*.

Well it certainly is great fun having a project car and finding and sourcing all the parts yourself, then enjoying the end product. Been there done that. Its good fun if a tad expensive.

That sounds incredibly cheap to have sourced the parts for that kind of money, but if you have, good for you.

I'm sure it'll be a hoot to drive. Okay its not going to have the polish of an OEM product, but that doesn't really matter. Although you may find like I did that you spend ages setting the car up and working out how to get a better balance with the handling. Now the advantage with an OEM car is that someone has already spent millions with all the right tech to do this and if they've done a great job then its already there.

[BarronMR]

Well it certainly is great fun having a project car and finding and sourcing all the parts yourself, then enjoying the end product. Been there done that. Its good fun if a tad expensive.

That sounds incredibly cheap to have sourced the parts for that kind of money, but if you have, good for you.

I'm sure it'll be a hoot to drive. Okay its not going to have the polish of an OEM product, but that doesn't really matter. Although you may find like I did that you spend ages setting the car up and working out how to get a better balance with the handling. Now the advantage with an OEM car is that someone has already spent millions with all the right tech to do this and if they've done a great job then its already there.

Indeed but as Im studying motorsport technology I can kind of justify the money spent as study materials

I got some bargains along the way (rev2 LSD box £65+£25 d/shafts) but most of the stuff I could buy again, maybe not identical but like for like at same cost. Chassis was one of ollie's SC's just sold all the SC running gear to claw back some money, already had the coilovers on, but I think adj koni's would work well enough.

I agree having a major manufacturer doing all the setup is brilliant but only works if their goals are the same as yours. I suspect toyota weren't aiming mk1 or mk2 at hardcore trackdays, so i'm having to adapt the best, affordable chassis to my needs. I'll be happy if I can just get the thing around the track as quick as the similarly expensive machinery.

To keep on topic, its obvious the ITR was developed with the enthusiastic driver in mind.