[All] [Generic] Who is running a turbo 4-AGE engine??

[Jim-SR]

if its a proper Atlantic spec motor then big end journals will be 42mm (TRD cranks werent made in any other size) and gudgeon pins will be 19mm

Wiseco make forged low compression 4A-GE pistons, but they wont make them in 19mm pin versions, the only 4A-GE's that run 19mm are Atlantic engines and they have never run in turbo trim

your best bet is to probably speak with Wiseco and see if they can produce a set of pistons with their low compression crown design on top of the bottom half of their Atlantic pistons. youll need to figure out what size overbore your engine has, its most likely running 81.5mm pistons though

ideally though you probably want a stronger piston setup than the Wiseco, if youre going to do it properly then speak to Mahle about some custom pistons, they are producing the current Atlantic pistons for Hasselgren and they are awesome pieces of kit. in fact you could probably get away with running new Atlantic pistons, they have a much higher piston pin position and a much shallower skirt arrangement, so on the standard length rods they would drop the compression quite a bit! ive got 2 sets of them sat here, might be worth considering as they are proven strong enough for the normally aspirated engines at 10,800rpm, and save all the effort of getting things made up custom.

are you planning on converting it to fuel injection when you turbo it? running it on carbs will complicate matters a great deal and youd have a lot more control with EFi

[Chris Wilson]

Collected the car today, some photos of the Inconel manifold and dummy turbo, wastegate collector and exhaust system, before it gets ceramic coated at:


Thumbnails at http://www.gatesgarth.com/4age/primary/primary.html

[Chris Wilson]

if its a proper Atlantic spec motor then big end journals will be 42mm (TRD cranks werent made in any other size) and gudgeon pins will be 19mm

Wiseco make forged low compression 4A-GE pistons, but they wont make them in 19mm pin versions, the only 4A-GE's that run 19mm are Atlantic engines and they have never run in turbo trim

your best bet is to probably speak with Wiseco and see if they can produce a set of pistons with their low compression crown design on top of the bottom half of their Atlantic pistons. youll need to figure out what size overbore your engine has, its most likely running 81.5mm pistons though

ideally though you probably want a stronger piston setup than the Wiseco, if youre going to do it properly then speak to Mahle about some custom pistons, they are producing the current Atlantic pistons for Hasselgren and they are awesome pieces of kit. in fact you could probably get away with running new Atlantic pistons, they have a much higher piston pin position and a much shallower skirt arrangement, so on the standard length rods they would drop the compression quite a bit! ive got 2 sets of them sat here, might be worth considering as they are proven strong enough for the normally aspirated engines at 10,800rpm, and save all the effort of getting things made up custom.

are you planning on converting it to fuel injection when you turbo it? running it on carbs will complicate matters a great deal and youd have a lot more control with EFi

I think Quiksilver in the US built the engine, but as I have never stripped it I can only assume it has the proper FA crank. I'd be surprised if it hasn't..... I would also assume a small pin FA crank is stronger than a full size pin 4-AGZE stock crank, so will probably run with it. I will almost certainly put this crank in a 4-AGZE engine block. I picked up an almost complete 4-AGZE MAP sensor based engine at the weekend (anyone want sc stuff or other ancillaries...?). The block has oil squirters, so would like the additional piston crown cooling these offer.

As for pistons, not sure where to go there, the budget will run to custom rods, so piston pin size isn't an issue. I really no need to get the engine stripped to be 00% sure wht's in there currently. Thanks for the reply Jim.

[Adam W]

Looks like a beautiful job Chris, wouldn't expect any less from you though You might remember me from mkivsupra.net, the 7MGTE bottom end you built for my Mk3 supra years ago is still going strong despite having a T67 strapped to the side of it at 1.4 bar

[Chris Wilson]

Looks like a beautiful job Chris, wouldn't expect any less from you though You might remember me from mkivsupra.net, the 7MGTE bottom end you built for my Mk3 supra years ago is still going strong despite having a T67 strapped to the side of it at 1.4 bar

I do remember yes, it wasn't the short motor that worried me, it was keeping the head sealed on it. I think I wanted to O ring it, have you had any head gasket issues? Glad it's been a good engine for you, thanks for the kind comments

[Adam W]

It's been of the road for a couple of years as I bought a new house and I've been too busy doing it up to spend any time on the cars, but I did a top-end rebuild on it over the summer. I popped a couple of gaskets previously and the old head was skimmed each time, the last time I fitted a gasket I realised so much had been taken off that it was now an interference engine! I think the CR must have been much higher than intended even with a 2mm metal head gasket on it.
I managed to get a brand new unskimmed cylinder head, switched to ARP studs rather than bolts, and put a stopper-type gasket on it. It seems to be holding up OK, still mapping it as I switched from my overcomplicated, unreliable AEM to a new Emerald ECU, but it certainly hustles for such a big car. If it blows another gasket I'll put an LSx in it I think, I love those engines

[Chris Wilson]

Copper wire O rings in the block's head surface and a stock composite gasket work brilliantly, although a proper "stopper" beaded MLS gasket should be excellent, too. I built an all alloy 7.2 litre small block Chevy a bit ago, for a customer, that was a lovely engine, not a revver, but it had a bundle of torque Internal clearance issues were a worry, but a small base circle cam and shaved rod bolts gave 50 thou bolt to cam, and a few dyno pulls at peak RPM and torque showed no contact... AFAIK that too is still running. This is why I don't make enough money, I guess Must build in some more obsolescence in future.

[Adam W]

What is minimum seperation between bores that is required to use copper O-rings? I think that's why we didn't pursue it on mine, there wasn't enough meat between cylinders.

Hows your FA 4A-GTE head sealed? Does that use O-rings or is it something really exotic?

[Chris Wilson]

You need the wire ring (about .065 in diameter) to sit ON the fire land of the gasket. You really need about.060 ins between the rings to give enough land for mechanical integrity. Now you mention it I seem to recall the 7M-GTE bores being close. Not seen a 7M for ages now, but I have 5 x 2JZ-GTE lumps in various stages of completion here

AFAIK the FA engine use a normal MLS steel gasket. I'll know when I strip it this month

[Jim-SR]

you should already be running Carrillo forged H-beam rods, you wont need to upgrade those, youll just want to get them x-rayed

the crank will be a 42mm crank, which is the largest available, they never made a small crank to Atlantic spec, assuming its a TRD crank, which it should be. so again, youve got the absolute best available there anyway

the ONLY part of the engine that you can possibly improve is the compression ratio, which means pistons, and also the cam profiles to suit a turbo engine. however, valves, valve springs, retainers, pistons, gudgeon pins, all bearing shells, fasteners, and a ton of other "consumables" will want replacing if youve done a full life cycle on the engine. ESPECIALLY if youre going to turbo it

it might be worth seeing if you can get some more appropriate valves for the job as well. im not sure what the TRD valves are made from, but sodium filled stems would probably be worth a pop with the added heat youll have

as far as pistons go though, its got to be worth seeing if the Mahle ones will work. as i say, ive got 2 sets, and you can buy them already produced. they are meant for high compression, but due to the piston pin height, on standard length rods (which youll have at present) they would sit low in the block, which will result in lower compression. its just a question of how much really.

for the record, i also have valves, valve springs, and titanium retainers

[Chris Wilson]

Thought I'd copy paste some of the downsides, issues and problems with this project, as well as glitzy pics and the big HP numbers

I posted this on another forum, and i have also had issues with the new manifold / exhaust system, which is having to be resolved.

Charging the battery:

Is anyone aware of any tech info on how fast an alternator needs to be driven to give a worthwhile charge rate? I am looking at driving a small modern, lightweight alternator off a Hewland FTR inner tripod joint, by turning and welding on a bell shaped toothed wheel. I see some photos of Group C cars using such a system, but it's far from clear what sort of pulley sizes are involved. Thanks.

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My concern is this car (a Zeus Supersports car, a bit like a radical in appearance, with a Toyota 4-age engine) was run on carbs, with a Red Top pump, and just a very basic Electromotive ignition only managaement. For endurance races someone fitted a small car alternator (Japanese one, from some tiny import car, like Brise sell). They decided to drive it from a longer cam belt, but the mounting of the alternator wasn't brilliantly executed and I lived in fear of it moving and the cam belt failing or coming off. It also suffered failures due to harmonics breaking internal wires. No I am turbo charging the engine and fitting full fuel injection. I am told, and have seen, that modern FI, Motec in my case, doesn't like wild voltage changes, although it does allow for injector pulse width trimming over contained voltage changes. I think I am going to need a charging system. I have recently run the N/A engine on carbs with no alternator and a stock cam belt system, and felt happier. It would run a full track day with just a quick trickle charge into the Varley Red Top 30 battery during lunch, from a 10 amp charger. Once modified to pressure charging the turbo will be very near the only place to mount an engine driven alternator, so this is why I now look at running one off the driveshaft. It moves it away from heat, allows unadulterated cam belt routing, and should dampen the worst harmonics, indeed, without cam belt tension to worry about, it could be isolated on rubber bushed mounts. I think I'll risk it and maybe aim for a 3 to 1 geared up drive? Thanks

[Mk1Chris]

I posted this on another forum, and i have also had issues with the new manifold / exhaust system, which is having to be resolved.

Yay, i'm not the only one then

Afraid i can't really help with the alternator stuff tho, as I just used a standard 4agze one, although i did have to relocate it to the inlet side.

[Chris Wilson]

you should already be running Carrillo forged H-beam rods, you wont need to upgrade those, youll just want to get them x-rayed

the crank will be a 42mm crank, which is the largest available, they never made a small crank to Atlantic spec, assuming its a TRD crank, which it should be. so again, youve got the absolute best available there anyway

the ONLY part of the engine that you can possibly improve is the compression ratio, which means pistons, and also the cam profiles to suit a turbo engine. however, valves, valve springs, retainers, pistons, gudgeon pins, all bearing shells, fasteners, and a ton of other "consumables" will want replacing if youve done a full life cycle on the engine. ESPECIALLY if youre going to turbo it

it might be worth seeing if you can get some more appropriate valves for the job as well. im not sure what the TRD valves are made from, but sodium filled stems would probably be worth a pop with the added heat youll have

as far as pistons go though, its got to be worth seeing if the Mahle ones will work. as i say, ive got 2 sets, and you can buy them already produced. they are meant for high compression, but due to the piston pin height, on standard length rods (which youll have at present) they would sit low in the block, which will result in lower compression. its just a question of how much really.

for the record, i also have valves, valve springs, and titanium retainers

I think i am going to get some custom pistons made, as I am unhappy about a lightweight N/A piston handling the crown heat and transferring it through the ring packs well enough. I may well have them made with a stronger, maybe taper walled pin, too. I would be interested in new valves, if you have any. I have been warned by Hasselgren in the US about some poor TRD valves that were made at one time and I quote, "The Japanese valves are high
quality and have done service as turbo valves, TRD USA also had BBB South
American valves made, (cheap),not really up to the task. They look the same
but for small known differences to distinguish them."

What valves have you got? I'll be keeping revs sensible, to reduce crank loadings, so tit retainers are possibly overkill, but i may need none stock retainers to fit the Atlantic springs?? I will keep the stronger springs, as they have, of course, to overcome charge pressure, as well as shut the valves

I can't quite picture why these Mahle pistons will sit lower in the block than those that are in it though?

Hasselgren make a block girdle for the 4-AGE, and also put oil squirters in none 4-AGZE blocks, so it's entirely feasible to add under crown piston cooling to earlier blocks. The main bearing girdle sounds very appealing, as i know in the FA engines run beyond FA spec, naturally aspirated, the main caps can show signs of walking.

Thanks for the repy Jim.

BTW that Paris Dakar type Land Rover Discovery is sorted and gone, not sure what people see in those things, the neighbours thought it was a recovery truck I put some lower springs in it and got the dampers away from full extension at normal ride height. Presumably it's lighter now than when the dampers were designed.

[jimi]

Charging the battery:

Is anyone aware of any tech info on how fast an alternator needs to be driven to give a worthwhile charge rate? I am looking at driving a small modern, lightweight alternator off a Hewland FTR inner tripod joint, by turning and welding on a bell shaped toothed wheel. I see some photos of Group C cars using such a system, but it's far from clear what sort of pulley sizes are involved. Thanks.

Your looking at around 3000 rpm (alternator rpm) which will give a decent output from most alternators. Anything above 1000 rpm with give you some output.
You can also buy low rpm alternators (used on boats mostly) that will give a full output at 1000 or lower rpm (alternator rpm)
The only slight problem with running off a driveshaft is that you have to be moving to get an output, shouldn't be a problem on a track car.
hth
Jimi

[Chris Wilson]

I am assuming an average drive shaft RPM of 1000, and with a 3 to 1 gear up ratio (achievable, just, within the space without a silly small alternator pulley and over tight belt wrap), then I should be able to generate a goodly emission Thanks for the reply.

[Icsunonove]

Wow, this really is a lovely piece of work!



Can't wait to see the car back out on track

(PS Chris, I'm already living in Market Drayton so expect me to be pestering you / hanging round your garage / generally making a nuisance of myself shortly )

[Jim-SR]

you should already be running Carrillo forged H-beam rods, you wont need to upgrade those, youll just want to get them x-rayed

the crank will be a 42mm crank, which is the largest available, they never made a small crank to Atlantic spec, assuming its a TRD crank, which it should be. so again, youve got the absolute best available there anyway

the ONLY part of the engine that you can possibly improve is the compression ratio, which means pistons, and also the cam profiles to suit a turbo engine. however, valves, valve springs, retainers, pistons, gudgeon pins, all bearing shells, fasteners, and a ton of other "consumables" will want replacing if youve done a full life cycle on the engine. ESPECIALLY if youre going to turbo it

it might be worth seeing if you can get some more appropriate valves for the job as well. im not sure what the TRD valves are made from, but sodium filled stems would probably be worth a pop with the added heat youll have

as far as pistons go though, its got to be worth seeing if the Mahle ones will work. as i say, ive got 2 sets, and you can buy them already produced. they are meant for high compression, but due to the piston pin height, on standard length rods (which youll have at present) they would sit low in the block, which will result in lower compression. its just a question of how much really.

for the record, i also have valves, valve springs, and titanium retainers

I think i am going to get some custom pistons made, as I am unhappy about a lightweight N/A piston handling the crown heat and transferring it through the ring packs well enough. I may well have them made with a stronger, maybe taper walled pin, too. I would be interested in new valves, if you have any. I have been warned by Hasselgren in the US about some poor TRD valves that were made at one time and I quote, "The Japanese valves are high
quality and have done service as turbo valves, TRD USA also had BBB South
American valves made, (cheap),not really up to the task. They look the same
but for small known differences to distinguish them."

What valves have you got? I'll be keeping revs sensible, to reduce crank loadings, so tit retainers are possibly overkill, but i may need none stock retainers to fit the Atlantic springs?? I will keep the stronger springs, as they have, of course, to overcome charge pressure, as well as shut the valves

I can't quite picture why these Mahle pistons will sit lower in the block than those that are in it though?

Hasselgren make a block girdle for the 4-AGE, and also put oil squirters in none 4-AGZE blocks, so it's entirely feasible to add under crown piston cooling to earlier blocks. The main bearing girdle sounds very appealing, as i know in the FA engines run beyond FA spec, naturally aspirated, the main caps can show signs of walking.

Thanks for the repy Jim.

BTW that Paris Dakar type Land Rover Discovery is sorted and gone, not sure what people see in those things, the neighbours thought it was a recovery truck I put some lower springs in it and got the dampers away from full extension at normal ride height. Presumably it's lighter now than when the dampers were designed.

not sure what valves ive got, they originated from Hasselgren though. if theyve ever used those American made ones then they could be either, if theyve only ever used the Japanese ones then that would narrow it down! they arent new though, one set is only lightly used, barely even any deposits on them. ive got 1 set of brand new valve springs though (TRD dual springs), and the Ti retainers are pretty much necessary with the springs, they dont fit with anything else

as for the pistons, they sit lower in the block because the piston pin height is higher in the piston itself. its like youve got a piston that is standard pattern attached to a rod, and then smacked it into a table and the piston pin has been forced up further into the underside of the piston. which would result in the overall assembly being shorter. but as you say, there may be issues with the temperatures involved in a turbo engine, the Mahle pistons are fully ceramic coated though, teflon skirts and everything. i wouldnt like to make the call as to whether they would be suitable, but they are super high quality (taper walled piston pins as well!!) theres no chance youll break the piston pins, turbo engine or not. the issue will be with heat and the crown (and ring lands, they are small!)

p.s. what were you using/planning to use the discovery for? i dont really see what people see in off roading either, its all a bit brutal for my liking. id rather be in a fragile formula car missing apexes by an inch and losing 2 tenths for it!!

[Chris Wilson]

Been a bit waylaid with building 2 Skyline engines, so this has taken a back seat, but a custom plenum is in build, and Jenvey are sending me a 65 mm throttle body, some injector tubes, a fuel rail and fittings. i am going single body, mainly for cost and ease of mapping. Space precluded full size injectors without a lot of messing, so today some Siemens "Pico" style injectors arrived, which really are tiny. They flow about 670 cc / min at 3 bar pressure, and will go to about 940 cc / min at 6 bar, sp plenty of headroom there. I have also got the crank trigger sorted, and am weighing up the options for a cam position sensor location. I have a Bosch Motorsport 044 fuel pump, and a Bosch Motorsport fuel pressure regulator here now, too. Once the plenum is dummied up I can pull the engine and strip it, and get pistons ordered (they'll have to be specials) and some cams sorted out. I will almost certainly build it based on a used 4A-GZE block with oil squirters I have bought, and will fit it with billet main caps and line bore it. Even in N/A Atlantic spec the stock caps are known to move about a bit!

Finally, i have made an oil drain adaptor for the turbo, and sourced the correct banjos and banjo bolts, and the Aeroquip hoses to take water to and from the turbo cassette, and to feed it with oil. I have also made a restrictor to limit the oil volume to the turbo, as it's a ball bearing one, and they don't like a lot of oil flow.

A Siemens injectors is shown below, neat huh? Especially for something that will idle to emissions standards on a road engine, yet flow nigh on 1000 cc / min if required. The joy of disc valve injectors Specs at http://www.mmcompsys.com/download_zone/ ... jector.pdf

[Chris Wilson]

Not updated this recently as I am sorting out the plenum, throttle body and throttle pot, fuel rail, pressure regulator and fuel pumps and swirl pot for it, and I am also very busy with other things. I hope Jenvey will have my bits with me this week, so thankfully I can crack on again soon.

A belated happy New Year to everyone.

[Jim-SR]

with regards main caps moving about - if it is of concern then it might be worth laddering them. is your engine stressed? judging by the lack of attachment from the rocker cover to the chassis, and the substantial chassis members that attach to the gearbox and bellhousing, im going to take a guess at it not being stressed. in which case you wont encounter any of the deformation issues Atlantic engines suffer with a semi-stressed engine. i would be very confident that stock main caps will suffice, and that line boring alone would be enough. the atlantic engines use stock main caps without problems