[All] [Generic] Who is running a turbo 4-AGE engine??

[Chris Wilson]

I have started a project to turbocharge my 4-AGE engine, that's curently in Formula Atlantic trim. Is there anyone here running a big HP turbo 4-AGE?

Thanks.

[tonigmr2]

Hi again Chris, it's been a while!

There is a chap on here about to run a turbo on a gze, MK1Chris, indeed I think he is about to start it up....

My twincharger project is still chuntering along.

What are the specs on the FA engine?
T

[Chris Wilson]

Hi Toni, good to see you are still around. Been very tied up, first my elderly mother was poorly and frail, then she came to see out her final months here with us at home, then she pegged it... Work filled in what other time I had. Now I am catching up on my projects. Skyline RB26 engine is nearly done, and I have started on a project to tubocharge the FA 4-AGE in the red Zeus. The car and FA engine are at Primary Designs (www.primarydesigns.co.uk) in Thame, Pat there is making an Inconel turbo manifold. After that I need to address throttle body(ies), plenum, throttle cable, injectors and fuelling set up, engine management and intercooling. I also need to look at heat insulation issues, a turbo drain set up, and eventually, mapping.

Anyway, this is the car in its present form, externally I expect that very little will change. probably just the deletion of the air box, which interferes with the back wing air flow anyway. I may will draw cold air from a filter in one of the side pods and blank off the rear body opening for the air box.



Pics of the engine install as is, and minus the carbs and current N/A exhaust primaries and tail pipe are at http://www.gatesgarth.com/4age/4age.html

Had to make decision on what turbo to use, I asked my tame turbo expert, and he said a Garrett GT3071R with a .64 A/R would be a good start point, and Turbo Dynamics and Owen Developments concurred, so I have ordered one of these to do initial trials with. Turbo Dynamics have shipped a bare turbo to the fabricators to use as a pattern. The T28 footprint helps a lot, as the installation is very tight .

Primary Designs are making and fitting the Inconel manifold, the support bracketry for the turbo, and a silenced exhaust system, all thermally coated in Zircotec. I have used Primary Designs for an F3 system, and for some prototype work before, and can't speak highly enough of this company. They now take on some general motor sport fabrication work, too, so there's less to-ing a fro-ing than there used to be, as they can fabricate ancillary stuff in house. I justify their high prices by telling myself 60% of the F1 grid can't be wrong in using them The guys there are a genuinely enthusiastic and helpful bunch who happily share a wealth of knowledge gleaned at the highest levels. They were making a new Arrows BMW Megatron turbo manifold, for an historic F1 car, and it was truly a work of art, more deserving of the Tate Modern than any exhibit I have yet seen on the TV They should have a gallery on their web site, some of things they make are very deserving of photographic record. I can't understand why they haven't...


Primary Designs reckon it may be done by the end of this week, so should be picking it up at the weekend or early next week. I have sent some stranger a 50 quid deposit by Paypal on a 4-AGZE engine (that's the supercharged one, the block has oil squirters for cooling pistons. If it comes good I can build the engine on another block and leave the Atlantic one untouched in case this all turns to sand. I'll also have a supercharger and manifolding et cetera to sell to MR2 or Levin people.

Pat at Primary has promised some photos of the manifold in bare Inconel, before it's sent for ceramic coating, I'll post them up.

I have decided that some softer cams are a good idea, so will search out possibilities for these next. Need to re install a charging system, do a wiring loom for injectors and ancillary sensors, and fit the Motec M800 I am saving for it. I also need to make a fuel swirl pot and high pressure fuel system. I need to buy throttle bodies, fuel rail and injectors, and buy or make a Plenum. Jenvey are bringing out a cast alloy plenum for their bodies, suitable for pressurised usage, but it's now been put back to next year, I may have to get something fabricated, which could be costly

I also need to source an air filter for the turbo, have an intercooler made and make mounts for it, and, (bodywork which I hate...), make moulds to have an air scoop produced to feed the I/C. I am aiming for 380 BHP at around 8750 RPM. Currently it makes about 190 or so BHP at around 9750 RPM.

[tonigmr2]

Will be very interesting to see that manifold!

I will point Chris here as he probably looks mainly in the MK1 section. He is turboing a gze, so it's a good backup for you to buy - though he's had a few challenges I think!

The turbo seems a big size to me...what is the CC of the FA engine? When we were looking at turbo-ing the 4agze we thought a T25 or T28 would be more responsive? Mind you, you are aiming for power higher in the rev range I guess, which complements the design of the FA engine?

Car looks great. Would be interesting to hear about what air intake you look at, I was only discussing this with the guys who have all my stuff at Rogue Motorsport today. (Though I also have a mounting issue in the MK1...).
T

[crazybrightman]

cant realy help with any of your questions but that looks a fantastic project that gt3071r will flow 450bhp all day long so you may end up with more than you wanted
i would say that its much better idea to start building your engine up from a 4agze lump as it ticks all the boxes of what you will need to stop it falling apart under that power.

[Lauren]

Herro Chris,

If you are buying a 4GZE get the later AE92 or AE101 spec block as that has the oil squirters. The AW11 IIRC does not.

[Chris Wilson]

Thanks Lauren, the one I am getting is a MAP sensor one from a late Levin, the vendor is adamant it has the squirters. If it has i intend to check the viability of adding them to none "squirterised" blocks, by milling a flat in the right places and drilling and tapping holes. I do this on MKIV Supra N/A blocks to add squirters like the TT blocks have.

[Lauren]

Thanks Lauren, the one I am getting is a MAP sensor one from a late Levin, the vendor is adamant it has the squirters. If it has i intend to check the viability of adding them to none "squirterised" blocks, by milling a flat in the right places and drilling and tapping holes. I do this on MKIV Supra N/A blocks to add squirters like the TT blocks have.

No worries. A MAP sensor one will be later spec with teh squirters so you'll be fine.

[Mk1Chris]

Sounds like you'll have an amazing setup there.

My 4agte is only running on a t25 because i want it to be nice and drivable on the road, but your bigger turbo will definately pull in the upper rev range, you may find you suffer some lag lower down tho - not an issue if you are staying above 5,000 rpm all day long.

All of my issues have been with finding a manifold that fits properly and then corresponding parts to go with it. I have had so many problems with different things fouling in the engine bay that it has taken me months to get this far. I imagine that if you are having someone make a manifold up for you and do all the work that you'll be fine

Good luck, Oh, and i dont know if this makes a difference to your setup, but an aw11 4agze block is 8:1 compression, and the AE92/101 is 8.9:1

[Chris Wilson]

Thanks, the Atlantic spec engine has done maybe 6 track days and three long distance races and never missed a beat. The rev limiter is set to 9850. No worthwhile power below 5500 at all. Really needs to be kept between 6500 and 9500. I used to race F3, so even that fairly narrow power band is a luxury, modern F3 engines have about 1800 to play with.

I think I'll find some softer cams, I haven't measured what's in it right now, I think they are about 304 degrees duration. Maybe I'll find some around the 280 degree mark.

Talking of CR and pistons, that's something I'll need to address, does anyone make a decent, light, off the shelf forged piston for the 4A-GE at about 8.5 to 1 CR? Until I strip the Atlantic engine I can't be sure what BE journal size the crank has, nor what pin diameter the pistons and little ends are running. Do you think 350 / 380 BHP is viable?

[Mk1Chris]

Absolutely, there are guys in the states running 4agte's at over 300hp with no where near the setup you'll have.

I'm hoping for a rather more modest 220-240 depending on what pressure im happy running the turbo at.

[cartledge_uk]

Talking of CR and pistons, that's something I'll need to address, does anyone make a decent, light, off the shelf forged piston for the 4A-GE at about 8.5 to 1 CR? Until I strip the Atlantic engine I can't be sure what BE journal size the crank has, nor what pin diameter the pistons and little ends are running. Do you think 350 / 380 BHP is viable?

Depends on ££

your best bet is to get yourself over to the aus forums (toymods) or the usa forums. They turbo the 4ages and crank them to silly power so know the best ways to tune them etc.

[Mk1Chris]

Here is my engine:





Only kidding, this is a guy running 30psi and achieveing 420hp at the wheels

[cartledge_uk]

7afe bottom end 20v head 418bhp at the wheels 811nm (put this in as your running atlantic spec, I guess you have those insane massive valves, so your intake valve area will be similar to that of the 20v)




This is the money shot

I can't remember the exact figures, but this bad boy was the insane side of 550bhp, and yes, they are carbs its running.

In a 1972 carina, running a fastest 1/4 of 10.078

[Chris Wilson]

Some nice engines there. I remember when I first started playing with turbos I built a Volvo B21 engine, with a TO4 blowing through twin sidedraught Dellortos. making a velocity sensitive carburettor understand air density is a nightmare, I was SO happy when affordable EFI became available to the great unwashed.

The GT3071 turbo I'll be using has an integral wastegate as space is at a premium. The photo MK1Chris posted is stunning, a very tidy installation indeed. What other forums cater for the 4A-GE engines?

My manifold should be ready on Saturday, I can then send it away for ceramic coating. I hope it all works out, it's cost a bomb, but I see so many cheap stainless tubular turbo manifolds warp and cracking in my job. I can't be doing with something that is as basic as the manifold giving hassle, so I reluctantly just bit the bullet and went Inconel, with proper supporting arrangements.

I am so paranoid about this, seeing so many customers cars give them untold grief with manifold problems, I am compromising ultimate performance on my Skyline RB26 engine build, and running ported stock Ni_Resist cast iron manifolds. I also "collect" HKS low mount cast iron RB 25 and RB 26 manifolds, especially new ones, so if anyone knows of any for sale, let me know


As an aside, anyone know of off the shelf plenums for twin throttle bodies, capable of running pressurised?

[Mk1Chris]

The GT3071 turbo I'll be using has an integral wastegate as space is at a premium. The photo MK1Chris posted is stunning, a very tidy installation indeed. What other forums cater for the 4A-GE engines?

Although an integral wastegate can bring its own problems as i have found, I am yet to source one that fits in the space i have without fouling on something - the closest I have got so far is what im running with atm that only attaches with one bolt

Lots of other 4age type places - mainly focussed around the corolla usage of the engine.

One of my favourites: www.garagedori.com

Also: Twincam.org , 4age.net , Toymods , Toyspeed and the US mr2oc.com

I have done so much forum reading with these places to prep for my swap, there is plenty of info - although remember to use the search function as for some reason the americans have a huge bee in their bonnet about 'newbies' not searchiing before posting.

[Icsunonove]

Hiya Chris, great to see you posting here!

I was the bloke working for BookaTrack on the pitlane at Donington when you brought the Zeus Challenger along to the noisy day. You may remember me making a nuisance of myself hanging round your pit garage.

I can't tell you how impressed I was with the pace of your little car. I've simply got to have one

That Atlantic spec 4AGE makes a fantastic noise as well. I could hear you all the way into McLeans and Coppice from the pitlane

Anyway I look forward to seeing the progress of your build and please please keep posting.

Tom

(PS I am moving to Shropshire shortly (Market Drayton) can I come ansd see what you're up to?)

[Chris Wilson]

Hiya Tom! Be good to have another petrol head nearby. For sure, come and have a beer. I work mainly from home, so don't expect Williams Grand Prix Engineering, but I usually have a few interesting things around.

I am very flattered with your comments on the Zeus, Pete Sneller built a stunningly nice chassis, as soon as I saw the Zeus cars I forgot all about Radicals and other Supersports cars of the time.

If you want to see some recent projects have a nosey around ftp://ftp.chriswilson.tv or http://www.gatesgarth.com and http://www.chriswilson.tv There's lots of our animals and dogs there (my other interest apart from alcohol) but also quite a bit of car stuff, sadly not collated at all though.

When are you coming to Shropshire then?

[Jaspa]

Have you guys seen this...

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=949377

[Mk1Chris]

Have you guys seen this...

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=949377

Yup, is the car with the engine I posted above, he's a regular on garagedori:



Still, gotta love it!