Replacement Engine in! Problem! Help Please!

[lazaros1]

Hi,

Recently put in a replacement engine. Got it running. Been trying to sort out the timing and hit a bit of a problem. I've got a timing gun. The timing marks on the cam pulleys and crank pulley are lined up.

Put the engine to TDC for cylinder 1 on the compression stroke or whatever and got the rotor arm pointing to 1. Got the car running but was really struggling to get the adjustment in the distributor to get the crank pulley notches in sight of the gun.

After a lot of messing around of refitting the distributor and adjusting the rotor arm which is a pain inda ass taking everything on and off again and again, I managed to get the timing marks in sight of the gun as I adjusted the distributor, seemed to run alrite. When I then try and go one tooth more advanced on the distributor to get the notches in sight of the gun the car struggles to start, however managed to get it to start with the distributor turned fuly clockwise and it runs even worse than when the needle is before the first notch on the crank, i had to keep revving it to keep it going but manged to point the gun to find the needle was in-between the 15 BTDC and 0 TDC markings. (I am right to use the needle sticking out from the tensioner pulley bolt right?).

Basically I'm confused as to why it doesn't run properly when the timing seems to be about right, as it should be 10BTDC, when it runs better when it's way less advanced and can just about see the first timing notch on the crank. Does anyone have any explanation/theory to this? Even though it does run better when it's more retarded it's still not quite right as it struggles to stay running when it warms up.

One thing I can think of that might be causing me problems, and yes I know this was stupid, when I replaced the coolant I just poured it in without opening any bleed valves or anything like that. I thought I'd just worry about bleeding it later on. Will this be a factor do you reckon and why its not running that well?

Hope this all makes sense!? Hard to explain on a forum!

Any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated...

Thanks,
Sid.

[Mk1Chris]

Did you short the terminals (t1 and e1?) in the diagnostic when setting the timing?

Sounds like you may be a tooth out on your exhaust cam tho.

[lazaros1]

Yep I did short the terminals, funnily enough when I was first doing it I'd forgot but then realised straight away.

Was hoping it wouldn't be the tooth on the exhaust cam as that'll cause me loadsa xxxx to do the timing belt again! Was bad enough when the engine was out nevermind now that it's in! I'm sure when I checked they were all fine and lined up, whether it's jumped the tooth since I'll have to double check to see!

Any other suggestions welcome...

[cartledge_uk]

Check the TPS adjustment

http://www.padandwheels.com/mr2/TPS/tps.html

[lazaros1]

Will check the tps 2nite

I noticed sumin last nite, I lined up the cam pulleys with the timing marks and noticed that the needle lined up roughly with the first notch on the crank, is that right? I know the crank timing is done from the gear behind the pulley but should that correspond with the notches on the crank pulley aswell?

[System-G]

What dizzy are you using?
Is the engine fitted he same ag/maque as the one removed? ECU? Wiring loom?

I had an absolute nightmare trying to fathom out very similar issues and in the end replaced the inlet manifold, wiring loom and dizzy from an engine known to be working.

Have you pulled any fault codes? If not, try this and post your findings

[lazaros1]

I'm using the dizzy, ECU & loom from my old engine, all these things were working, the engine failed from the piston ring going on cylinder 4.

The engine i've fitted is a redtop like mine was so all should be ok, the only thing different I noticed was the type of connector on the thing on the side of the cylinder head, can't think what it's called right now.

I've pulled fault codes already and I haven't got any unfortunately, wish I did so I knew what was wrong! The thing is though I can get it running ALRIGHT but the notches don't line up so I've got no reference to go by and no way of knowing if the timing is right or accurate enough!

[un1eash]

Did you check that the markings on the crankshaft pully lined up to TDC along with the crank and cams? Its possible that the crankshaft pully has delaminated and rotated making the markings on it useless.

[lazaros1]

Did you check that the markings on the crankshaft pully lined up to TDC along with the crank and cams? Its possible that the crankshaft pully has delaminated and rotated making the markings on it useless.

When I fitted the timing belt while the engine was out I made sure the cam pulley markings and the crank gear marking lined up with the relevant markings on the block. I'm 99% sure I got this right. Now that the engine is in I turned the crank so that the cam pulleys line up to see where the crank pulley markings line up with the needle coming off the tensioner pulley bolt. When I did this the needle lines up with the marking furthest left on the crank pulley, is this what it should be? Also, what do the markings on the crank pulley represent, is it 15BTDC for the left one, 0TDC for the middle one and 5 After TDC for the one on the right?

[jimi]

No you've got it wrong, here's a pic (courtesy of Eric Southers)



HTH
Jimi
Edit
Bleed the cooling system properly or you'll end up changing the engine again !

[lazaros1]

Thanks jimi, that changes everything, IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! Thanks for the help guys, I got the markings wrong so thought I had to get the timing between the first two notches on the crank pulley! This messed things up and explains why it would struggle to start when I'd have the timing at this point as it was too advanced! When the timing was where it should be I was frustrated as i couldn't get the needle past the first notch when I didn't need to.

So I'm assuming now, that the middle notch (the 10 one in the photo) is just a reference for the distance I need to set the timing to the left of the TDC notch, as I need to get it 10 BTDC? Does that make sense? It needs to be to the left of the first TDC notch which I could achieve by setting the distributor back one tooth.

Now that you mention the coolant and from reading other posts what's the best way for me to bleed the coolant now that it's already in there? Shall I run it with the cap half on so that air can escape or something? Advice on this would be greatly appreciated...

Cheers,
Sid.

[un1eash]

To set te timing you need to bridge T1 and E terminals with some wire and set the timing to exaclty 10 degrees, the second notch. Then when you remove the bridge it should be around 16 at idle.

To bleed the coolant use the bleeds pipes on the heater matrix and the radiator, i wouldnt worry about the valve on the engine. You need to use the supplied pipes and raise them above filler cap height. Open the valves and the level should rise up the pipes to the same level of the cap. Then run the engine to wam with the cap half on. Top up the system to full again and that should be it.

[jimi]

Bleeding the cooling system CLICKY

[lazaros1]

Ah!!!! So I do need to set the needle to the second notch? That was my problem, when I had the timing set that far it would struggle to start and seemed too advanced to run properly! When it was set before that (further left on the crank) it would run better! I'm fu**ed! It seems then that somewhere along the lines of the calibration of where the needle should line up with the notches is wrong somehow! Could my Dizzy be broke or something?

[un1eash]

Its possible the dizzy wasnt inserted correctly, not sure myself how to line up the dizzy with TDC. I always mark it with tipex before removing.

[jimi]

Try this article ( Eric again) it's about changing the distributor O rings, but covers removing / refitting the distributor, the part you want is around section 11 CLICKY

[lazaros1]

My mechanic told me to line up the distributor by setting the crank to TDC/Compression on Cylinder 1, then making sure the rotor arm on the distributor is pointing towards the connection for cylinder 1's ignition lead on the dizzy cap. This got me close enough, then it was adjusted accordingly to get the timing close. I don't think it's a matter of how I'm setting the distributor/timing etc. to where it should be, it's a matter of when I get it to where it should be lined up it doesn't run properly, that's the main problem.

I couldn't mark the dizzy when it was removed as it was removed from my old engine to use in this one, could that be an issue? they're both the same engine type (red top) but different engines if you know what I mean

[ligertigon]

Line up the dots (about 4mm diameter) on the dizzy, never mind the rotor arm position, look inside the oil filler cap for this:


and the timing pointer should be:


Then carefully push the dizzy in carefully so it doesn't turn.

And there you go

[PW@Woodsport]

I think there's a lot of confusion on this thread... you need to make a clear distinction between cam timing and ignition timing,they are entirely separate things and i think you are getting confused between the two.

Check your cam timing is correct,then your ignition timing using the proceedures set out above.

[lazaros1]

I've checked the cam timing and from what's been said on this thread that is ok. The cam pulleys line up and the crank pulley lines up with the first notch for TDC. So I'm glad that's ok so I dont need to adjust any of that.

I think somewhere along the lines maybe I've messed something up with the ignition timing so gonna do that from scratch using the procedures above and see what happens. I think the main problem was the fact that I had it wrong what each notch on the crank pulley represented. Again thanks for all the help guys, it's cleared up a lot of what was confusing me.