[Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

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bobhatton
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by bobhatton »

Now that was very clear and it all works as I understand it.
Now what I would like to do when the ECU upgrade is avalible is to use the knock input to run and control a water injection system and also nitrous.
I still have 100 or so water control units that change the water flow with revs but it will be great if I can get the knock input do the same job.

Bob
Designer for turbo set ups on F1 cars, and Nitrous Oxide Systems of the USA in the 80s
Gersen
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by Gersen »

Video of the ECU Mapping GUI as promised

This is hooked up to Jeremy's patented MR2 simulator (it's a box of electronics that simulates all the sensor inputs and allows you to adjust them)
:mrgreen:

Image

DOWNLOAD LINK HERE

I'll post an explanation of what is going on in the vid later this evening when I have some more time but use some common sense and see if you can figure it out first ;)
Why thank you - I grew it myself you know
Gersen
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by Gersen »

Firstly the numbers in the table are not absolute values but only relative values in the ECU.

AFM position is the red bar on the right and RPM the blue bar underneath. Where the bards meet is the load site that is being used!

Obviously the load site covers an area and when you are not exactly on a load site a slight correction is applied. The site target indicator shows a red symbol if it's below or above the site - the bigger the red thingy the more off it is. Same goes for blue but this is RPM.

Eg - Initially the RPM is 3957 - this is slightly below the load site for 4000 rpm so the blue indicator is small and slightly to the left of center indicating this.

At about 1m16s in the rpm is at 2612 which is only just in that load site (2800rpm) - the cut off for the next site being the mid point between 2800 and 2400. The blue oval is large and to the left to represent this.

Seconds 0 - 10

Pointer shows the point on the fuel correction table that's being used. BLue bar shows engine rpm and red bar shows AFM position.

Green efi bar shows injector bandwidth in microseconds

Pointer then moves to richen the mixture at that load point and the number goes up!

10-20

Using the weaken mixture button to lean of the mixture at that load site

20-30

Switching to the ignition advance table for the same load site and using the retard and advance buttons to....you guessed it advance and retard the mixture.

The brown bar int he bottom right shows the current ignition advance in degrees!

30-40

More tweaking but you can see that the ECU is not currently detecting knock (KNK)

40-60

The knock input is dialled up to simulate a bout of detonation. The knock window (bottom right) shows the degrees of retardation being applied. Note how over time the retardation slowly decays - it takes about 20 seconds to decay entirely. You can see the actual ignition advance gradually recover too.

60-90

The inputs for the AFM in red and the RPM are changed. Note how the load site changes and the ignition advance and injector bandwidth change

90-120

The map at the new AFM and RPM settings switches over to closed loop management and you can see the closed loop fuel trim adjusting the injector bandwidth.

120-end

Note the changing of the TPS (throttle position sensor) and that it doesn't actually change the injector bandwidth or the timing as those are determined by the AFM position and the RPM which remain constant.


HTH and feel free to ask for explanations - I seem to be doing a fairly poor job of late and it's 3.30am right now!

:mrgreen:
Why thank you - I grew it myself you know
PFrazier
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by PFrazier »

Brilliant. Thanks for the info.
darryl_p
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by darryl_p »

time for an update ?
Pi_Mai

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by Pi_Mai »

Maybe a dumb question.... This systems is good for a 1990 GT four? I know that the mr2 have a small difference according to the engine but the ECU is unknown to me.

I like to know if your wanting to expand to other countries?

PS. extraordinary work on this piece of kit!
mrfil13
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by mrfil13 »

I had time to look at the datalogging software again, this time i had a proper look, makes sense now :)

Any idea if there will be away to hide some of the info ie EFI, or ignition advance, just incase you want to concentrate on something else. Also one thing that bugged me was when using the slider to move along the panel goes blank and has to wait for data to be loaded in, if this was made so that it you just scroll along and the data updates as you do it would be great.

I also noticed that the MPG is slightly delayed, i guess its using previous figures, anyway to offset this to make up for the delay?

I know its only beta, but just thought i would voice what i have found. Also any chance of knocking been displayed as well?


Phil
JMR_AW11
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by JMR_AW11 »

mrfil13 wrote:I had time to look at the datalogging software again, this time i had a proper look, makes sense now :)

Any idea if there will be away to hide some of the info ie EFI, or ignition advance, just incase you want to concentrate on something else. Also one thing that bugged me was when using the slider to move along the panel goes blank and has to wait for data to be loaded in, if this was made so that it you just scroll along and the data updates as you do it would be great.

I also noticed that the MPG is slightly delayed, i guess its using previous figures, anyway to offset this to make up for the delay?

I know its only beta, but just thought i would voice what i have found. Also any chance of knocking been displayed as well?


Phil


You need a faster PC to stop the annoying blank between updates :lol:

I do keep meaning to make the logging and viewer refresh more efficient. I'll try and have a play over the weekend. It may be possible to speed it up quite a lot.

I wrote the basic viewer years ago one afternoon whilst learning to play with some charting features and it hasn't changed much other than a few cosmetic tweaks and bugfixes.

The mpg looks delayed because it's averaged and also the speed sensor data in the ECU is slightly delayed (beyond my control). The speed sensor is quite sluggish so it's best to ignore the economy readout unless cruising at a steady speed.

BTW I did do a beta version recently with 4 extra traces.

AFM, Engine Load, TVSV and ignition correction under knock.

Also I improved the timer resolution to 0.01second. (was 0.1second)

To make it less cluttered I thought about having two stacked charts so there are less traces overlapping.
JMR_AW11
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by JMR_AW11 »

Pi_Mai wrote:Maybe a dumb question.... This systems is good for a 1990 GT four? I know that the mr2 have a small difference according to the engine but the ECU is unknown to me.

I like to know if your wanting to expand to other countries?

PS. extraordinary work on this piece of kit!


I'm not looking at other ECUs apart from MR2s at the minute but it could work on the GT4 if the PCB was reorganised to fit in the GT4 ECU.

I have some GT4 ECUs here already eg ST185 and ST205 but I've not really done much with them.

My ST205 ECU has dual techtom boards in it (not bad for £20 on ebay) so one day I need to play with this some more. I did work out the scramble/crypt method Techtom use so I can make sense of the code in the EPROM chips and change it etc.

I also got a mk4 Supra ECU (twin Turbo) cheaply off ebay with Sard Techtom upgrade so that is another toy to play with in the future.
Pi_Mai

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by Pi_Mai »

So the MR2's and Gt4 (St185) ECU are different..... damn I would love to use the system in which your building. Is it just a size problem? I dont think anyone would care if it was connected by a lead or wires (i dont, that's for sure). Plus it be great to check diagnostics once in a while as i do thrash my Four a fair bit.
I have been looking to get a new ecu but i just don't want to loose any of the safety feature of the stock ecu.

btw, i'm running a JDM spec ST185.
darryl_p
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by darryl_p »

time for another update ?
Gersen
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by Gersen »

Long story short is that Jeremy, Ryan and myself are trying to arrange a mutally convenient time to get the first visit to the RR.

The plan is to have a look at any tweaks that need to made to the mapping GUI, have a look at bringing down the overfueling at the top end and generally making sure that everything is robust from the mappers point of view.

I'll let you know when we have a date ;)
Why thank you - I grew it myself you know
mrfil13
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by mrfil13 »

cool :thumleft:
Owen @ Kent Car Craft
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by Owen @ Kent Car Craft »

I still love the sound of this project guys,
keep us informed,no plans for Skyline GTR's yet then? :wink:
Image
Gersen
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by Gersen »

OH FFS CNUT BSTARD!!!!!

Just spent an hour writing the first post RR report and the text got lost by IE as I'm at work not at home using Mozilla.

I'll rewrite it shortly but I have to go and kick puppies now as I'm seriously honked off

:(

RR went very very well btw ;)

/Gersen exits stage left gnashing teeth
Why thank you - I grew it myself you know
Ryan.g
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by Ryan.g »

Having now mapped one of these 8) , all i can say is :clap:

Jeremy is one clever guy. A full report will be given soon im sure by Tom but this is a great new product for the mr2 world and hopefully other toyota cars :wink:

I look forward to doing more.

Next step is Bigger injectors for the Test car 8)

Ryan
Pirate

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by Pirate »

Just hope it doesn't cost the earth too do , like £400+!
Gary ST165
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by Gary ST165 »

look forward to reading the 1st RR report :thumleft:
mrfil13
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by mrfil13 »

Ryan, with this is there anyway of getting a generic map that sorts out the Rev2's habbit of just chucking fuel in after 12psi without a rolling road session, it would be nice to be able to have a safe map like the toyota one that is flexible with mods but not OTT like it is when over 12psi, or is this something to stay away from?

Cheers
Phil
Gersen
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] !!! REV2 Turbo Mappable ECU !!!

Post by Gersen »

Right – we had the first visit to the rolling road on Wednesday.

Our aims were to:-

(i) make sure the hardware and software worked as expected in a mapping environment and to find out what tweaks, if any, needed to be made

(ii) retard ignition advance to a level to avoid knock if any is present

(iii) improve the top end and cruise over fueling issues

(iv) see how far the existing size of map could be pushed before it ran out of load sites

(v) If at that point all was well the idea was to remap the ignition and fueling for good power.

To tell you how we got on I’ll answer those in order

On the day the hardware and software for tuning worked perfectly other than some minor fits and starts with a laptop refusing to talk to a USB serial adapter!

As Ryan has already said the mapping side of things was pretty much an ideal setup – the only thing that’s going to be done is a mod so that data logging and mapping can be done simultaneously. Currently it’s either one or the other. There was also going to be a minor tweak to a couple of things – change the hotkeys to adjust map sites etc – nothing earth shattering!

Major result! – the hardware and software work well and critically (totally) reliably

[ii] As the runs went on it became clear that my car was detonating all over the place and the amount of ignition advanced used at the top end by Toyota is pretty surprising (28 degrees in some places)! By the end of the day it was also obvious that my turbo was, while holding boost perfectly, suffering from significant blow by and consequently lowering the octane rating of the charge and increasing the prevalence of detonation. End result was that Ryan pulled a lot of timing from the top end and low end at high loads to prevent det. The other significant point was that as my car runs a low temperature TRD thermostat the ECU was being fooled into thinking the car was not fully warmed up and the base cold running map is fairly liberal with its use of extra fuel and ignition advance to make the car run smooth when cold. It transpires that this map is also nicely editable in both the adjustment it offers and at what temperature (THW – Thermistor, Water) the coolant is currently at. As a result we figured out this little gem of knowledge that should keep the Rev2 tubbie community from blowing up there engines at little longer 

IF YOU HAVE A REV 1 or 2 AND ARE RUNNING ANY MODS OR INCREASED BOOST THEN YOU HAVE A MASSIVELY INCREASED CHANCE OF DETONATION OCCURING AT LOW RPM AND HIGHER LOADS WHEN NOT AT FULL OPERATING (MEASURED) COOLANT TEMPERATURE – IE 3RD GEAR ROLL ONS FROM 2000 RPM!

[iii] The AFR plot showed that the (surprise surprise!) the standard fueling was exceptionally rich. Surprisingly the point at which the worst over fueling was occurring was not at the top end but at the TVIS activation point – we can only speculate that the sudden increase in air volume flow rate gives the AFM a really hard time accurately tracking flow rate.

As standard the AFR ratios dropped below 10:1 (the lower readable limit) and were not seen again all the way to the redline. After a few runs Ryan managed to bring the AFRs to hold around 11.5:1 between 3-5k dropping to 11:1 from 5k to the redline.

Testing is obviously ongoing and I’m recording the mpg I’m getting for whole tanks of fuel. Initial results look good (very good in fact) but I’ll be working from empirical data and not my feelings ;) Cruise mpg is shown to be significantly improved also but I have to pull the logs and compare them to previous logs to have accurate data. They are coming but again they look very good.

[iv] The initial correction maps for load would seem to accommodate around 300+fwbhp – this is good news as it a lot easier as Jeremy has already done the work for using this size of map. Ultimately larger correction maps can be coded in by Jeremy to accommodate larger loads (ie going for more power) but at the moment the existing maps are large enough to go for some quite large gains 

[v] I think I’ve pretty much covered this already so I’ll add a few more tidbits of info.

The car was running 0.88 bar of boost on the day and is pretty much standard other than it runs a CT20b turbo instead of a CT26, an exhaust, decat and air filter, and she has had a steel HG and ARP head studs and nuts added for reliability. You can check the full spec in the garage if you feel the need ;)

The 23rd run (last) of the day she made 260.5 fwbhp and 238lbft. I’ll post the graphs when I’ve scanned them in.

A massive thanks due to Ryan @ 2Bar and Charlie from Surrey Rolling Road – we’ll be headed back in a month or so when I’ve fitted the replacement turbo and we’ll be trying out the larger injectors too.
Why thank you - I grew it myself you know
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