[Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

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Morth666

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by Morth666 »

As stated above ..take them to the cleaners matey.

Im only doing a law degree at the moment and not yet qualified but you definatley have a case mate. If the garage dont cough up id go to a solicitor. They would have to pay damages and your legal costs if they were found negligent. Judging by the damage caused and the way they conducted themselves i cant see them having a leg to stand on.

The fact that you didnt inspect the cover before fitting it means nothing. Your not a skilled mechanic so even if you did check you couldnt be expected to identify any problems.

You payed for a service which they performed sub-standardly and you should be compensated to put it right :thumleft:
rookie-racer
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by rookie-racer »

as a marine engineer, at a drydock, every working day we have painters working in conjunction with my teams, my painters always mask any mechanical parts, ie propelers water inlets, vents stabilisers etc...

in your original post you said these quys were car restoration specialists, either

A: as restoration specialists they should know not to blast internal engine components but [ incidentally, my painters ues VERY powerful jetwashers , not sandblasters... to blast the loose paint and barnicles off the underside of our boats]

B: if they blast all their own covers, and they dont blow up their clients engines, then they must clean or mask them more thoroughly than they did yours, ie negligance.

however... in a previous chapter of my life I was a lorry driver, in one of the firms I worked for during this mini career, we had a lorry engine overhauled, it came back running low oil pressure. that driver reported it, the transport manager discussed it with our garage, they went to the the engine suppliers, who said it was a characteristic of that engine?

years later but still within the warranty period of that engine, if lost all oil pressure and consequently failed. during t ensuing postmortem it was discovered to have been a piece of carbarundum from the glaze buster had embedded itself in the valve seat for the relief valve on the oil pump.

through the firms weak management we hadnt doccumented the whole low oil pressure thing hence, had very little ground to stand on. afik, bearing in mind I moved on during this process, we went to court and won a partial cost settlment from the refurbisher. but only because we had an independant chartered engineers report who i believe as part of his evidence sent the offending particle away to an independant lab for analysis...

moral of the story.... get a sample of their sand as evidence.

re who do i think was to blame. both. today we started to rebuild an engine we stripped last week, overhauled the components on the bench at the weekend, despite jsut being overhauled by ourselves, the first thing we did this morning was clean every component again, and the last thing we did before bolting them in was clean them again.

but if your reciept says blast CLEAN and paint, yor fire proof because the patently havent cleaned it completely and by being a car component it is tacitly specified as needing to be surgically clean.
alan.i
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by alan.i »

Hi, i have tried to preserve the cam cover as best as can ,if need it for evidence. But, apart steaming into the workshop and grabbing a handful of sand from the cleaning bay, and presumably upsetting the owners in the process,How would you suggest i go about this?.

moral of the story.... get a sample of their sand as evidence
mattcambs
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by mattcambs »

Hi Alan. Nasty experience. (get a rev 3 engine though :D every cloud....)

I'm not sure why people have said you are to blame ](*,) What purpous does this acheive? You are in need of advise on how to claim compensation, no need to be kicked while you're down.

I'm no expert, but I'm in total agreement with Paul at Woodsport. If, however, you took your cam cover to a general product finishers (not an auto restoration expert) and asked them to re-paint it, then I believe you wouldn't have much of a case if it turned out they shot-blasted it.

Get talking to a solicitor, chap. Good luck.

Matt
Martin F
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by Martin F »

agree with quite a few comments, go and see a solicitor and don't give up...this was sheer incompetence by someone and like so many things in life they would rather rip you off than give you there money....the only word that pops to mind is "scum"...they think because your a nobody that they can walk on over you.... :evil:

you asked them too do a job and they didn't do it properly and caused many £££ worth of damage. its like someone getting a heart operation and leaving a bit of cotton wool in a valve....resulting in an untimely death because someone didn't clean up the wound properly...


speak to a solicitor asap and get them to proceed with a claim for damages due to bad workmanship / incompetence and fee's.


good luck and i really hope they get what they deserve :thumleft:
davyboy
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by davyboy »

Take proper photo's too, none of this digital nonsense :silent:
Digital images don't stand up as evidence, too easy to play with, film photo's do.

I know it's easy to kill engines with chilled iron, I once did the same thing with the inlet manifold and wondered why the valve setas kept dying... :oops:
terry0769

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by terry0769 »

whats the latest on this how did you get on had a similar thing happen to me not quite as drastic results but i never followed it up. :-k
alan.i
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by alan.i »

Hi, by coincidence i have just come back from the local court this afternoon, where i have started court proceedings.
It has so far been a lengthy and frustrating wait, as the company who carried out the work have dragged their heels by not responding to my letters etc.
I paid them a personal visit about a fortnight ago and spoke with both directors of the company and one of them made a quite astonishing admission.
He stated that in his opinion, his college should never have sand blasted the cam cover, as it was an integral part of the engine?.
This remark was not well received and the person who had carried out the work, left the office in a bit of a huff, slamming the door as he left.
The person that i spoke with, appeared to accept that the damage caused to my engine was as a result of the sandblasting operation they had carried out to the cam cover.He offered me an apology but that was as far as he would comment.
To cut a long story short.
He took my telephone number and said that he would talk to his business partner and company lawyer and would contact me as soon as a decision had been reached.
I know that his admission was only verbal and couldn't be used in court, but it made me feel so much better.
That was two weeks ago and no contact has been made, hense why i have started court proceedings.
Anyone, who has had a similar experience, is more than welcome to share their views with me.
It would be quite useful to see how this company may view their position? and it might be useful to see how they think they can wriggle out of this position?
I will try to update when i have more info.
vishpish
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by vishpish »

hello mate

after reading the comments ill say firstly im no expert but by coincidence im doing a course in commercial law as part of my law degree and its a real toughie

the company will try and deny responsibility but in my view youve got a claim. at the end of the day you are no expert in mechanics, the law wont expect you to be and wont expect you to be able to examine for sand particles that could clog an engine (i mean who except Paul woods here would know that!). if they are experts in restoring cars and this guy, thier director, has accepted liability or at least acknowledged it, then they are liable.

s12 The contracts concerned(1)In this Act a “contract for the supply of a service” means, subject to subsection (2) below, a contract under which a person (“the supplier”) agrees to carry out a service.

s13 Implied term about care and skill: In a contract for the supply of a service where the supplier is acting in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the supplier will carry out the service with reasonable care and skill.

thats the 1982 act above ^^^ sue under that section mate. i hope you get them mate, but dont wait in your court proceedings get it started asap and if they dont respond to letters and appear to the court, then they will be held liable for all the damages claimed. i wish you all the best mate keep us all updated

hth
Rob
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by Rob »

This exact scenario happened to me. I fitted the cam cover and 2 minutes later the engine started running very badly.

As much as I hold some belief that the shot blasting/powder coating company is to blame I should have been more rigorous at checking it before I fitted it (however after reading this thread the argument that they shouldnt leave a part like this full of rubbish is very interesting)

As a result I had my engine changed to a Turbo and am not upset about what happened, but I wish you luck in resolving this - your car looked mint and its a real shame.
HighwayStar
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by HighwayStar »

Bad luck mate.
Do another letter to them referencing the boss' verbal admission and asking what advice he has recieved and decision he's made. If they then reply in writing without questioning your ascertion of the admission at least you have proof of that admission for court.

R.
SFLee
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by SFLee »

bad luck mate

but as far as i know

not much can be done,

because

A, you ask for a service , they done the service, they have no reason to assume you going to put the cover back on to the car, as for clean and sandblast, they clean it , and did the job, you pay for in full and accepted the good, this mean their service to you ended.

B if they install it, then you may have a case, if not, hard to prove your engine is not like that before cover went on, or prove that you not cause it during ur install, or even it is down to the installer make sure no dirt get into ur engine, which usually mean like, if you know there is dirt left on cover take it back and get them sorted, instead of installing it etc

if it does get the small claim count, they will just mention as above
PW@Woodsport
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by PW@Woodsport »

sorry SFlee i dont agree with that...

if you pay ANY company to carry out work,that work should not result in the loss of your entire engine,its as simple as that.

They shotblasted an internal engine component without any mechanical knowledge that this would kill the engine,thats THEIR fault for not advising the customer it would be unsafe to shotblast such a component.

No amount of cleaning these covers would eliminate the grit,it clings in clumps in all the little nooks in the baffle plates,from the moment they put the cover into the shotblast machine his engine was doomed.

Take them all the way mate
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by 3S Service Centre »

I feel for you mate.

A customer of ours had some engine bits sent away to have them powder coated, they came back 3 days ago in exactly the same conditon as described with grit everywhere.
I of course have made the customer aware of the problem and on a moral point of view feel its only correct to stop a dissaster happening, but I can see how very easy it would be for it all to go wrong. It only requires some bad communication on either party or lack of experience.

I would be very interested to see how this would end in court as i think its 50/50, or closer to favour the mechanic??? maybe im wrong.

James
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tonyp

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by tonyp »

sorry to read you news.
We have had many different engine parts either machined or painted over time, & they NEVER come back in a `ready to fit state`,
as matter of course all parts being refitted to an engine should always be inspected & cleaned for any dedris from whatever prosess has been carried out to the parts,
how i see it is that if you gave the car to some one & asked them to remove ,paint & refit your cambox cover ,with the end result in a engine full of bead grit, its down to them,
if they painted the cover & you removed & refitted it its down to you,
if they painted it & you paid a 3rd party to fit it you need to speek to them & try & come to some comprimise...
good luck........
PW@Woodsport
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by PW@Woodsport »

again i disagree.... from the moment they put the part into the blaster it had destroyed his engine.... you can NEVER get all of the grit out unless you drilled off the baffle plates and steam cleaned the covers,even then id be wary... one spec of shotblast bead is enough to take a bottom end shell out.

These people simply didnt have the knowledge that what they were doing was disastrous.
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Tiny
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by Tiny »

alan.i wrote:
I paid them a personal visit about a fortnight ago and spoke with both directors of the company and one of them made a quite astonishing admission.
He stated that in his opinion, his college should never have sand blasted the cam cover, as it was an integral part of the engine?.
This remark was not well received and the person who had carried out the work, left the office in a bit of a huff, slamming the door as he left.
The person that i spoke with, appeared to accept that the damage caused to my engine was as a result of the sandblasting operation they had carried out to the cam cover.He offered me an apology but that was as far as he would comment.


Thats why when you step into the lions den turn on your phone if it has a microphone recording feature or take a dictaphone with you.
Has made more than a few people who have said one thing to me then said something else when in court playing it back to them over the telephone from your solicitors office really helps settle things quickly.

as long as it says specifically "clean" on the invoice or receipt then you have you a strong case
tonyp

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by tonyp »

PW@Woodsport wrote:again i disagree.... from the moment they put the part into the blaster it had destroyed his engine.... you can NEVER get all of the grit out unless you drilled off the baffle plates and steam cleaned the covers,even then id be wary... one spec of shotblast bead is enough to take a bottom end shell out.

These people simply didnt have the knowledge that what they were doing was disastrous.

Agreed the point your making, when they bead blasted the cover they gave it the kiss of death, but that cant give them blame for the engine damage,
when you last sent a cyl head for skiming can you honestly say you didnt clean it & blow all parts with an air line to remove swaf before you fitted it ?
or when you had brake calipers given to you which had just been painted or powder coated you just put them together & expected all would be well ?
when any vehicle part is rebuilt anyone with any savy will clean & inspect it before fitting it , its bascic good mechanical practice.
I feel very sorry for the guy who`s engine is dead & a very hard lesson has been learned,but the guy who painted the component carnt be held to any more than to replace the cover if hes`s damaged it...
GeoffC320
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by GeoffC320 »

I'm surprised at the number of people saying the contractor is blameless. I would have thought they are in the wrong on several counts:-

1) They should not *assume* any knowledge of their procedures and any possible ramifications on the part of the customer.

2) As a vehicle restorer they should have been aware of the danger of sandblasting the part.

3) Unless they specifically told the customer what method they would use before the work commenced, he would have had no chance to ask them not to do it that way.

4) If they *weren't* aware of the danger in doing so they were culpable by way of ignorance/incompetence.

5) If they *were* aware it could cause problems, they were culpable by not making the customer aware of this.

Personally I would have checked the part before refitting it, yes. But from what Mr Woods says, it would be almost impossible to check to a safe degree once the process of sandblasting had been undertaken. So in effect it would have made no difference.

In my view the only way they ought to be able to avoid paying would be:-

a) If they were not a vehicle specialist and had no reason to know this was an inappropriate procedure.

b) If the customer specifically asked them to sandblast the component rather than leaving the method up to them.

c) If they had warned the customer (preferably in writing) that it should be stripped and cleaned before refitting.

Since (apparently) none of these apply, then I think the OP has a very good case. IMO.
3S Service Centre
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED, MY ENGINES BEEN KILLED

Post by 3S Service Centre »

Good points there Geoff, i guess it makes it more frustrating that they are vehicle restoration specialists.
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