Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

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MR2DIE4
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by MR2DIE4 »

i have plans for my NA engine in the near future (mid-end this year)

the 3S-GE is an engine that benefits a lot from revving faster. i studied this engine for 6 years now :shock: . The stock engine was build to withstand an absolute max of 8500rpm STOCK. but i wouldn't do this because power falls down at about 7000rpm

with cams of 264° of duratio the powercurve starts to fall down at +- 8200rpm, with cams of 272° it falls down near 9000rpm, and the powercurve all start around 4800 to 5000rpm (operation of ACIS)

so i think around the 290 to 300° it will get you to that 10 000rpm mark, and if you know TODA does cams to 320° for this engine.... :shock:

if your going to rev that fast balancing of ALL rotational components is crucial!.
crank, flywheel, cam pulleys, cams, crank pulley, ...even equal weight piston rods and pistons can be a very good idea
also upgrade to better rodbolts if using stock rods, but its best to upgrade to lightwheight rods to
also, every 3S-GE engine has pre-plumbed oil passages in the block, on the turbo cars, these passages are used for oil squirters for cooling the underside of the pistons. GE cars however don't have these installed, but he passages are allready in the block!, any good machine shop could bore into these galleries so you can install the GTE oil squirters.

also if you raise compression, it will climb into revs faster
stock is 10:1 or 10.3:1, the beams redtop has 11:1, the blacktop has 11.5:1, toda makes pistons to 13:1 for the blacktop

if you do high duration and lift cams on a rev2 3S-GE (rev1 MR2) you should upgrade to shim under bucket (std in rev3 MR2) so that your shims won't fall off, and its a direct swap.

also upgrade your valvesprings!

defenitly use adjustable cam pulleys because that is the best way to get the max out of your cams (stock or upgraded!)

minimal porting is required on the head, DON'T polish on the intake, the only work needed is port it to match the intake runners 100%

same is true for exhaust side -> match it to your equal length header, and port and polish it, get all the ridges out of the exhaust ports

until here all can be tuned with a good piggyback like the unichip (latest models) or perfect power SMT6 or 7, greddy e-manage, AEM EMS, ...

standalone is most of the time better though, although you loose standard ECU functions

ITB setups is highly recommended at that rev range but because you are running the engine in a mid-engined car, lead the horns either to outside or into the trunk with a scoop on the bootlid or something or a horn cap with intake leading to sidevent

when using ITB setup i recommend standalone ECU

at the power level allready reached right now it's highly recoomended to NOT heat wrap your headers or exhaust pipes.
Allthough this is good on modest hp buildups and keeping heat inside and improving flow, at this powerlevel it will strangle your exhaust, the way to go here is to COAT all exhaust piping with heat treatment.
This way all piping can "breathe" frealy , meaning it can expand and retract under those heavy heat conditions. if you wrap it, it WILL crack!

i don't consider NOS here, because i find this a temporary poweradder and therefor i consider this as not real. allthough it can prevent detonation and give impressive colling abilities.

also, don't forget FUEL! no fuel = no power. Upgrade fuel rail, injectors and pump.

last thing and absolutely CRUCIAL, upgrade your oilpump assembly !!! oil is the blood of an engine and i would figure a stock pump will most likely say thanks at this revs.

i've seen tuned 3S-GE engines of 260hp myself, so it is realy possible, the best example is the TODA, TOMS, TRD, ...3S-GE engines in formula 3 producing 300hp.

TRD once sold "client" versions of these engines producing 270 and 290hp, but beware, i think no one her can afford this level of tune.

a last note, Toyota started back in rally last year.....with the 3S-GE in the latest corolla. (african Super 2000) it produced 255hp @ 8500rpm in its first year (they won the carmaker championchip allready in its first year!), this upcoming championchip it WILL have 270hp (the end of 2005 it was allready at 265hp but the 'official' figure was set at 255).

go for it, you won't regret it, i go for it too.
JMR_AW11
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by JMR_AW11 »

nathanfreke wrote:As for mapping - stand alone it the best. Looking back i wish i had gone that route but instead i went with the greddy emanage which i think is the best alternative to a full stand alone. I never had any real trouble with it at all but little niggly things like sending the std ECU to malaysia to get the rev limit moved to 9,200rpm was a pain in the ass and also i would have loved to be able to map the car on TPS only - not TPS and MAP as this would have made the idle perfectly smooth and driveability would be much improved!!

BENDER UNIT - if you wanna pm me i can give you some info on what i used and what i didnt - also some probs i found along the way. If you are thinking of keeping stock ecu and just using piggy back then i know a man in holland who can remove your rev limit and disable the map function so it only runs on tps!! (he can only do it on blue top ecu's where as mine was a red top and he couldnt get the eprom for it :( )

HTH
Nathan


Is the guy from Holland called Ron?

I remember emailing him about a year ago.

I think he was into ITBs and TRD AE86 ECUs.
Century Motorsport
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by Century Motorsport »

Is the guy from Holland called Ron?


Yep.... Ron Hellenbrand.

Can be a bit of a nightmare to talk to but he has got the ECU sketch well sorted now \:D/

Nathan
pintovit

Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by pintovit »

So MR2DIE4, for all lot... how many organs must I expect to sell? :-k

Now more seriously, what would you say to be the amount to do all that?
I know that this can be very dificult to say and changing from case to case, but just a rought number... :lol:


Regards,
Vítor
jonno
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by jonno »

Just to let you know, we are doing exactly this with a camry 3.0 3vz V6....

motec, heads, cams, valves, 11:1 cr, itbs and injectors.

Hope to rev it to 8.5k rpm, but alot depends on what piper can do with the cams.

trying for 330-350bhp...

will report back later this year :)
Forever Feels Like Home, Sitting All Alone Inside Your Head...
jonb-
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by jonb- »

jonno wrote:Just to let you know, we are doing exactly this with a camry 3.0 3vz V6....

motec, heads, cams, valves, 11:1 cr, itbs and injectors.

Hope to rev it to 8.5k rpm, but alot depends on what piper can do with the cams.

trying for 330-350bhp...

will report back later this year :)


Can't wait =D>
jmachling
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by jmachling »

I really don't know much about this topic, but am surprised there hasn't been more mention made of the Beams engine - wouldn't this be the one to try this with, or does the VVTi system employed make it less feasible?

Thor advertised a brand new blacktop recently - tempting for someone I'm sure!
jonb-
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by jonb- »

If i recall the VVTI becomes a restriction after a certian point in power pretty close to where it's tuned to stock and needs to come out.

Also 3sge engines are 10 a penny so it doesn't matter if you trash it :)
jmachling
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by jmachling »

That makes sense. 3S-GE - the Bic Biro of engines :wink:
jonno
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by jonno »

Chris Huntley got my 24v Quad Cam 3.0 V6 for £500, well actualy the entire car ;)
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Andy F
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by Andy F »

Hello
Ive just read through this thread, and how nice it was to read, no slanging matches, no crap advise just good interesting and helpfull stuff!!
A breath of fresh air :idea:
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jonno
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by jonno »

I suspect its because the unruly element dont know what a 3sge is :)

On a seperate note, does anyone know how high you can push the CR on an N/A before you need to start running on race fuel? I was originally advised 11:1, although I have noticed a few new production cars running higher elevens?

Since I am having the pistons custom made I want to go as high as possible, the MoTeC controls things pretty well so if I can get the CR right on the edge then thats what I want to do :)

Any ideas?
Forever Feels Like Home, Sitting All Alone Inside Your Head...
koreanjoey

Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by koreanjoey »

jonno wrote:I suspect its because the unruly element dont know what a 3sge is :)

On a seperate note, does anyone know how high you can push the CR on an N/A before you need to start running on race fuel? I was originally advised 11:1, although I have noticed a few new production cars running higher elevens?

Since I am having the pistons custom made I want to go as high as possible, the MoTeC controls things pretty well so if I can get the CR right on the edge then thats what I want to do :)

Any ideas?


I am quite interested on this point also. I'm not an MR2 guy nor am I in the UK. I'm in the US w/ a Rev 3 3SGE in an ST184 Celica and I'd like to make an all motor 3SGE. I know it's not the most economic way to make power but I feel it's the best thing for me. As far as ITBs would you recommend Blacktop or Silvertop ITBs? What EMS system should I use?
Century Motorsport
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by Century Motorsport »

Some honda's run 12.5-1 :wink:
petbeemer
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by petbeemer »

Funnily enough we are just in the midst of building a turbo motor to spool around the 9k mark,only problem we've had is to lighten the top end and get some decent springs in there to stop the valve's bouncing around.
We are an Evo specialist by trade and even though ive always owned mr's along the way ive never played to much with them until now,but weve had good results getting the evo to rev and seeing an mr is a shorter stroke i dont see the problem building a strong n/a motor that can rev high 9's
May even be at the pod next year in one
pintovit

Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by pintovit »

Reviving this old thread to check the news...

So MR2DIE4, Jonno, any news on those builds?! When I first read this it sounded like great projects... But the thread died without much more juice...

What's up?

Cheers,
Vítor
THE DUKE
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by THE DUKE »

I know of a guy in Japan that was running a 4age on ITB's nad lots of engine work.

Short story is 9,400RPM limit and 260bhp from a 1.6 :)

Also i would expect it sounds like a jet engine
pintovit

Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by pintovit »

That and a rebuild each half an hour! :P

Love the looks and the sound of ITB's... Wouldn't mind at all doing that to mine... Although it seams it costs a small fortune...
Dan_Q
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by Dan_Q »

Great thread folks :clap: :thumleft:

I will be tinkering with my NA hopefully this summer, ready for a shakedown at santa pod in october (well thats the plan anyway).

For this stage it will be a relatively mild tune, but I see above if I run 264 duration cams, I can rev to 8200.

My question is, can I adjust the rev limit whilst still using the standard ECU? I will be running piggy back fuel and ignition controllers for squirt and jolt.

Cheers
DiYMCRT
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Re: Giving the 3SGE another 2000rpm...

Post by DiYMCRT »

i'm also into building an n/a mr2die4 sounds pretty much nail on the head in comparison with what i've found out, although budget is important (partly the reason for my fuel system), cam's are essential, as are shimless buckets

i'm doing carb's as i don't like ecu's [-( (and they're cheaper) jetting could be an issue but it's not really at all hard to find someone to jet for you, just look at rallying and you'll find a host of twin 40's powering old escorts, 205, mini's and alike, the company's are out there, and carbs are just as effective at providing fuel when setup correctly

as effective less efficient lol

just incase u get the carb fever the issue with carb's is ignition :( i'm told you can use an E15 nissan distributor found on mid 80's sunny's, block off the vaccum advance and machine the drive gear housing to fit the toyota one, also there's a mk1 with a ge in running what's believed to be an old ford dizzy possibly pinto with lumination or similar controler, presumably the drive gear was machined, or there's megajolt but if you can map an ignition fully (as megajolt don't do a ge or gte map you would have to either run the 4age map with crossed fingers or adjust it to suit) you might as well buy megasquirt and map the whole ecu if you can re-map
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