CHARGE COOLER + WATER INJECTION ??

[Leakie Tbar]

Forgot to put this on my last post crap!!!!!!!

I have 2 water injection kit's kicking aboot now would it be pointless to use water injection with a charge cooler

[Scotster]

Oh god no they compliment each other very well!

Scott =op

[Century Motorsport]

wanna sell one of the wi kits???

PM me if you do

[TBDevelopments]

why would it be pointless to run a chargecooler and water injection?

Tim
xxxx

[DaveART]

why would it be pointless to run a chargecooler and water injection?

Tim
xxxx

Depends how good his chargecooling system is, if his charge temps are low and stable enough, then all WI may contribute to is bogging down..

[TBDevelopments]

thats where a mappable water injection comes in.

Tim
xxxx

[DaveART]

Whats the controlling got to do about it? If its not needed, its not needed, unless the 'mappable' control means 'off'!

[V8Killer]

If you have have too much water injecting at high rpm you'll lose power (which makes sense if you look into the technicalities of WI).

Whereas if you can reduce the flow rate at higher rpm you'll gain more power.

A mappable WI system gained me about 10% extra power (30BHP).

Cheers

[DaveART]

If you have have too much water injecting at high rpm you'll lose power (which makes sense if you look into the technicalities of WI).

Whereas if you can reduce the flow rate at higher rpm you'll gain more power.

A mappable WI system gained me about 10% extra power (30BHP).

Cheers

lol, yes, obviously...who the heck is going to use a fixed amount of WI ?

..but to repeat, if you charge temps are low enough pre WI, then any amount of water, low or high will not see any gains.

[V8Killer]

lol, yes, obviously...who the heck is going to use a fixed amount of WI ?

LOL...shall we ask this forum how many people run unmapped water injection? I think its the majority...because it still give you that safety net, on a hot day! Not only that it will probably make your engine last longer too, keeping the valve ends / and combustion chambers free of carbon build up!

..but to repeat, if you charge temps are low enough pre WI, then any amount of water, low or high will not see any gains.

I think most people who run WI run a mix of water/methanol...the methanol allows one to advance the timing a touch...this is most likely where the extra power comes from!

Even running mapped pure water will probably not gain u any extra power! The bulk of the extra power comes from ignition advance due to methanol.

Cheers

[RichardPON]

Water injection is not about gaining extra power - it's about REGAINING lost power due to excessively high ACTs.

One of the most over-used mods, and so often fitted when not required.

Why would you want to be puting water into the combusion chamber, no matter how fine the particles, when it's not required.

Show me some full load ACT v ambient v boost pressure graphs and then decide if it's required.

WI should be used as a last resort beyong all explored avenues of cooling the charge........

[V8Killer]

Water injection is not about gaining extra power - it's about REGAINING lost power due to excessively high ACTs.

Not if you use a water / methonal mix. Like i said i had 10% power hike thanks to a mapped WI setup using water/methonal.

One of the most over-used mods, and so often fitted when not required.

People use it for a reason. Rally cars, the top cars at TOTB...they all use it primarily so they can pump in methonal!

Why would you want to be puting water into the combusion chamber, no matter how fine the particles, when it's not required.

Ever seen a combustion chamber on a car which used WI and then compared it to a car which hasn't used WI system? I suggest you do mate.

Show me some full load ACT v ambient v boost pressure graphs and then decide if it's required.

I don't have the time and resources to do this, but i do have a dyno graph somewhere of a before and after WI mapping.

WI should be used as a last resort beyong all explored avenues of cooling the charge........

Totally disagree, but we'll just have to agree to disagree

[RichardPON]

Disagree all you like, but you're wrong.

Rally cars use WI, as they are limited as to the size and type of charge cooling they can use. Cars at TOTB use it because it keeps control of charge temps which can escalate under continuous load. Actually, having now looked into it, most of the top cars at TOTB don't run WI at all, since they're all running Nitrous, which obviously has greater charge cooling properties than either water or water methanol mix.

Then what you're saying is that you use a mapped WI system. I presume then that your mapped WI is operated with boost and ACT inputs, which would mean that your regular charge cooling is inefficient if it comes on at all. If you know this not to be the case, then at what charge temp does the ECU begin to retard the ignition?

What sort of charge temps are you actually seeing that lead you to believe you need WI?

As for seeing combustion chambers, yes I have - I used to work at a company building racing engines!

Answer all of the above questions, and answer me why, ignoring the methanol additive, you think WI is a gain? If you're so keen to add small amounts of a non air fuel mix to gain power, then stop messing around and use Nitrous.

Oh, and from Aquamist's own website:

Because of its huge specific- and latent- heat capacity, water is the perfect liquid for regulating excess heat under certain engine-operating conditions, for example induction charge air cooling; but its biggest contribution is inside the combustion chamber where, under excessive loading, pre-ignition and detonation can otherwise occur. Such abnormal combustion is particularly common in force induction engines, where exhaust temperature can exceed 1100°C!

The sole function of water injection is avoiding detonation.

[KrisB]

most of the cars i saw at ten of the best had WI on them

[RichardPON]

Not if running nitrous - and from my recollection, most of the top contenders are now running nitrous.

I actually stand corrected that SOME of the top cars are in fact running WI, but there are plenty that aren't.

Of course, when it comes specifically to MR2s, we are referring to a mid engined car with very limited charge cooling possibilities, so I don't MIND WI, but only because the stock IC location is so pony.

I'm just far too scientific - I'd want to know at what ACTs and at what boost level people's WI strategy is mapped around, and then know why.....

[skinthespin]

Agreeing with Richard again, this doesn't feel right--lol.

I have always said this, pure water injection is a cure for a problem that cannot be overcome by correct cooling of the inlet charge, forgetting the methanol additive I cannot really see the need for WI on anything other than a 1/4 mile car running a high specific output. Personnally if my car was running at a temperature where I thought I needed WI i'd be much more concerned about making the IC/CC work better.

[RichardPON]

LOL - it's a shocker!

[raptor95GTS]

didn't wwII fighter aircraft use water injection to control the burn rate even when flying at 20k ft? Enabled the fuel to all get burned in more repeatable repeatable fashion lol

[DaveART]

didn't wwII fighter aircraft use water injection to control the burn rate even when flying at 20k ft? Enabled the fuel to all get burned in more repeatable repeatable fashion lol

Yes, but they didnt have an intercooler..

WI can be used instead of an intercooler, but if you have an ultra efficient inter/chargecooling system then WI is no other benefit other than det reducing..

If you are no where near the det threshold to begin with, then there's no gain.

[skinthespin]

Didn't spitfires have a chargecooler when running in 1200bhp spec? If it was good enough for the 'few'.............