NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Discussion and technical advice the SW20 MR2. 3S-GTE, 3S-GE, 3S-FE etc
Anything and everything to do with maintenance, modifications and electrical is in here for the Mk2.

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DaveofEdinburgh
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NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by DaveofEdinburgh »

Hi all,

Total noob to the site, so a big hello from a long-time MR2 fan!
As per the title Im looking for a track-car to replace my current weapon (Ibiza Cupra 2.0 16v).
Ive actually been looking very closely at the Beams-engined MR2 that Rash has for sale, and have made an offer on it. This car would be my daily driver.
This would leave me about £1500 to spend on a track car, which would ideally be MOTd and taxed so I can drive to and from Knockhill (until I break something ofcourse!).
There are many MR2s around at this price, and Id ideally be after an NA one as I believe theyre a bit less likely to cost me an arm and a leg should the worst happen.
Is there any particular advice you guys would give when buying an MR2 for primarily track use?
I wouldnt be totally against buying a turbo, but feel that the NA engine especially in its mid-engine configuration will give me enough thrills to be fun and exploitable.
foxy-stoat
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by foxy-stoat »

Stick another £500 on your budget and buy the mk2 v6 in the forsale section, perfick - you could leave the BEAMS where it is ! :lol:

Seriously tho, you could buy a rev3 for £1500 but you'd probably want to spend a fair bit on it, new pads/discs, stiffer shocks, poly bushes and cambelt. At a guess wouldnt give you much change out of a grand but you would start with the 173ish hp engine, although the rev3's are slightly slower, but you could lose some of the extra weight the rev3's have.

So that leaves you a rev1 or 2. Rev1's have smaller brakes so you'd want to fit rev2+ ones on there, rev1's original shocks are the insert type, meaning you can change inserts for stiffer shockers. Rev1's have smaller original wheels. Oh and stay away from the 3sfe 120hp engine, no fog lights and no rear spoiler.

Rev2's original shocks dont have the inserts, so you'd have to buy the complete shocker, mucho dearer. You would start with better brakes.

There are bargins out there to be had, if you dont mind some work. I'd start with the for sale section on here and on the mr2oc and stay away from the ebay sheds if you can help it, unless they are very cheap.

This one would be a good'un to start with, fit new pads/disks and poly bush it along with yellow or black billys, that should spend your £1500:

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=132892

Good luck and welcome !

:thumleft:
We ALL make mistakes !!! :)
RST
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by RST »

I'd really like to see a BEAMS on a track (competetively). I took mine on one briefly couple of years back -before it really had any mods on it and had a few comments from bystanders that it was pretty darn quick.
Jaspa
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by Jaspa »

foxy-stoat wrote:This one would be a good'un to start with, fit new pads/disks and poly bush it along with yellow or black billys, that should spend your £1500:

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=132892


Only thing with that one is it's a t-bar. For a pure track toy I'd personally be looking at tintop or sunroof :thumleft:
I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.
tonigmr2
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by tonigmr2 »

Is the MK2 NA a good track car? These people seem to think so. :)

www.mr2championship.com

Any NA will be a lot of fun on track, and £1500 should get you a track hack alright! But as Jaspa says - tintop is better than t-bar for that.
Rogue
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by Rogue »

Here's a guide I wrote for the racing series - will probably help you choose a track car too!

The mk2 MR2 had a ten year production run spanning from 1989 to 1999. During this time, Toyota revised the car five times - roughly every two years. The revision dates are as follows:

Revision 1: December '89 - August '91
Revision 2: August '91 - November '93
Revision 3: November '93 - June '96
Revision 4: June '96 - December '97
Revision 5: December '97 - May '99

Chassis
There were four different version of the MR2 chassis, designated SW20, SW21, SW22 and SW23. The SW21 and SW22 chassis' were designed for the left hand drive American market and were fitted with the 2.2l 5SFE and 2.0l turbocharged 3SGTE engine respectively. Neither are currently legal for the MR2 Championship. The SW23 chassis was available in the UK only and was outfitted with the lower powered 3SFE engine. The SW20 chassis is by far the most common and was available with the 3SGE engine in the UK and the 3SGE and 3SGTE engine in Japan. For the purposes of this article the SW20 and SW23 can be considered identical and are both suitable for use in the MR2 Challenge series. I will refer only to SW20 from this point.

The SW20 chassis was available in three forms, depending on whether it was purchased in the UK or Japan. Both regions received the T-bar model which has two removable glass panels in the roof. The UK had the alternative option of a "Moon Roof" which was a single large glass panel in the centre of the roof which could also be removed and stowed under the bonnet, while the Japanese market had the option of a "Tin Top" fixed roof. Tin Tops were not available in the UK and Moon Roofs were not available in Japan.

The T-bar version of the SW20 chassis is generally accepted to be heavier than the Tin Top or Moon Roof versions due to the extra strengthening in the roof area to combat scuttle. Other than that, weight differences between different versions of the mk2 MR2 are explained by variations in engine package, trim levels and options.

The only known change to the SW20 chassis was the introduction of two "dimples" in the rear panel at revision 3. This was to allow space for the reverse lights to be installed in the centre panel.

Since MSA regulations forbid glass positioned above the driver, the most suitable chassis would be the Japanese market Tin top SW20. The UK Moon Roof model would be a reasonable second choice, with the T-bar model coming in last.

Engine and Gearbox
The mk2 MR2 was available with a choice of four engines:

3SFE: UK Only - 118BHP - Not currently allowed
3SGE: UK, Japan - 158-200BHP - Championship legal (except BEAMS VVTi)
3SGTE: Japan, USA - 200-241BHP - Not currently Allowed
5SFE: USA Only - 135BHP - Not currently Allowed

The lower powered 3SFE engine was only available in revision 1 and some very early revision 2 cars in the UK. It was also the only model that could be equipped with an automatic gearbox. Although low-down torque is said to be very good on these engines, it is unlikely that anyone would want to consider them for race use.

Revision 1 and 2 3SGE engines are essentially the same 158BHP output, regardless of whether they are Japanese or UK market cars. The 3SGE engine in the corresponding Toyota Celica of the same year is also (as far as is required) identical to it's MR2 twin and can be interchanged. All Japanese versions of the 3SGE engines are available with an automatic gearbox.

Toyota improved the 3SGE at revision 3, increasing power to 172BHP, although there are many conflicting reports of this figure rangine from 172 - 176BHP. Other changes such as oil squirters below the pistons (as found on turbo models) help to cool the engine and increase it's longevity. Again, UK and Japanese models are the same and can be interchanged with the same engine from the Toyota Celica.

At revision 4, Toyota made some significant changes to the UK iteration of the 3SGE, while the Japanese version remained unchanged. UK cars were fitted with a system of exhaust gas recirculation in an attempt to bring down emissions. This in turn brought overall engine power down to 168BHP. The EGR system can be removed (or blanked off) under MR2 Championship regulations to bring power back up in line with the earlier model. UK cars were also equipped with transponder immobiliser systems making it very difficult to transplant the engine into another car (There are ways around this).

Revision 5 engines remain unchanged from the previous revision in the UK market, but changed radically in Japan. There, Toyota introduced a variable valve timing head, distributorless ignition and increased the compression amongst other tweaks, bringing power up to 200BHP and achieving the magical 100bhp/litre. Since only a limited number of these BEAMS VVTi engines were produced (rumored to be 1,000 installed in MR2s) and they change hands for in excess of £2,000 they are currently banned from the MR2 Championship.

Also of note, some late revision 5 cars were fitted with a limited slip differential which are not permitted.

The weapon of choice would therefore appear to be the higher powered revision 3+ engines, but real world experience would suggest that all versions of the 3SGE are very closely matched.

Suspension, Brakes, Wheels, Steering
All mk2 MR2s were equipped with power steering with the exception of revision 1 UK models which were not. Selection here is a matter of personal choice, although the non-power steering version is lighter.

Revision 1 MR2s have smaller brake calipers, disks and front pads than revision 2 onwards cars. Revisions 2 to 5 remain unchanged.

Revision 1 MR2s were fitted with 14" wheels as standard, and with slightly narrower tyres than later models. Due to the increase in disk and caliper size at revision 2, all later models were fitted with 15" wheels and wider tyres. While 15" wheels and tyres can be retrofitted to revision 1 cars, 14" wheels cannot be installed on revision 2+ cars. 14" wheels are not permitted in the MR2 Chapionship - this is to ease tyre supply rather than for any technical issues.

Standard shock absorbers and springs remain unchanged throughout the lifespan of the normally aspirated mk2 MR2. Japanese turbo models were equipped with uprated Bilstein shock absorbers (made by Toyota under license) from revision 2 and these make a good upgrade for n/a cars. A limited run of 500 normally aspirated "Anniversary Edition" cars split between UK and Japanese markets were fitted with Bilstein suspension as standard.

Revision 2 also saw some suspension geometry changes over revision 1, including a completely different rear subframe. Apparently this was in response to early criticism that the MR2 was tail-happy, although many consider that this was because people were unfamiliar with the mid-engine, rear wheel drive layout. Later cars are understood to be more predictable, though some claim that they've been "dumbed down" for the masses.

Anti-lock brakes were optional on all revisons of mk2 MR2. The system installed in Revision 1 -3 cars was fairly basic and (in my opinion) not well suited to racing - I would recommend disabling this system. Revision 4 and 5 cars benefitted from a more sophisticated setup with seperate channels to each corner (rather than one to each wheel at the front and a single line feeding both rear wheels), a deccelerometer and more sophisticated software. This system would be more suited to racing but I suspect that most race cars will be earlier models.

Other Considerations
All Japanese model cars came with climate control as standard. This is not a problem, but it will give you more components to remove when preparing the car. By law, aircon gas must be vented and disposed of professionally.

All Japanese vehicles are limited by law to 180kmh (~112.5mph). This can be disabled by either converting the speedo signal to read in MPH (essentially moving the speed limit to 180mph) or by simply cutting the speed input signal to the ECU (though this will illuminate the engine management light).

Revision 3+ MR2s command a significantly higher price than previous revisions, due to improved styling and power. T-Bar models are more sought after and typically fetch up to £500 more than other types.

Japanese normally aspirated models are known as "G" or "G-Limited". UK models are known as "GTi-16" for 3SGE engined cars or "Coupe" (no badge on the rear) for the 3SFE engined version. Turbo models are "GT" or "GT-S".

All versions of the MR2 were supplied with a rear spoiler with the exception of the 3SFE Coupe model. Revision 1 and 2 cars had a three piece spoiler that extends along the rear wings. Revision 3 and 4 cars had a single piece spoiler of a similar design but without the wing extensions. Revision 5 cars were fitted with what is affectionately known as the "Comabt" spoiler, consisting of two side supports and a central adjustable "blade". This can be positioned to (allegedly) affect downforce.

Exhaust systems vary between engine versions as well. Revision 1 and 2 engines have the same manifolds, while the revision 3 is different but shares the 4-2-1 layout. revision 4 and 5 cars have a 4-1 exhaust manifold design. All japanese model cars have a catalytic converter, as have revision 2+ UK cars. De-cat pipes are available to remove them.

Revision 3+ cars are fitted with a different design of rear light - they are more rounded and have the reverse lights in a colour coded centre panel.

Revision 1 "G" grade Japanese model MR2s were available with manual wind-up windows.

Internal side impact door bars were installed in all models from Revision 2.
karldavies
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by karldavies »

How much better are the tin tops against a t bar?

I'll be tracking mine lots and possibly racing it but its a t bar. I know the glass needs replacing for msa regs but in terms of handling is there actually much difference.

I'm no expert driver so cant imagine i'd notice too much difference.
brgbrm
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by brgbrm »

Hi Dave

I agree with foxy-stoat. I've done 2 track days at Goodwood so far. The first was in the wet with the standard na and I didn't particularly notice or care about the speed of other vehicles. Many wimped out, and I had great fun. The racing drive who tutored me said he didn't have much to suggest as he could see I was trying to go faster given the conditions. It was a great day.

The 2nd track day, I took both my standard mk2 na and my mk2 v6 to Goodwood, this time in the dry and then the std na was noticeably outgunned by most other cars, on the straights. In the curves, ie the interesting buts, both my 2s are about the same, but the v6 holds its own better on straights, so that's the one I'd go for.

Marc
DaveofEdinburgh
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by DaveofEdinburgh »

Thanks so far for all the help guys, great detailed info and advice!
Im talking to Rash from RA Motors at the moment with regards to his Beams engined Rev 5. As stated this will be a daily driver for me.
Im really looking to buy a track car for about £1500, hopefully a revision 3 NA as it has some nice extras over Rev 1&2 and should be cheaper to repair than a turbo
So, anyone who wants to point me in the direction of a fairly tidy Rev 3 at around that budget please feel free. Id ideally buy a known car on here if I can, but Im currently sifting through PH and AutoTrader too...
Rogue
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by Rogue »

karldavies wrote:How much better are the tin tops against a t bar?

I'll be tracking mine lots and possibly racing it but its a t bar. I know the glass needs replacing for msa regs but in terms of handling is there actually much difference.

I'm no expert driver so cant imagine i'd notice too much difference.


Once you've got the cage in there, the difference in chassis rigidty becomes largely moot. And we've had no problem getting the T-bar cars down to the weight of the tintops either - there's just more work involved in the initial preparation.
loudandproud205
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by loudandproud205 »

with regards to turbo models and racing, i was under the impression from the website, that there is a GT series now where super charged and turbo models are accepted?

as your using the black box iirc it said, i could be wrong i could have misunderstood this.

if you could clarify this i would appreciate it, as i was planning on trying to prep mine to a level where i could take part in this, i didnt want to go down to the n/a route really as am quite enjoying the learning curve going from fwd to rwd turbo.

something else that interests me, is there someone that can help teach/train me to understand/drive mid engined rwd car?

i have learned few things myself but ive largley stayed loyal to hot hatchs and id like to learn how to exploit the most out of my car, and i feel normal track day instructors don't have experince in mid engine rwd set up so there experience is there but not quite in the right place am looking for.

thanks lee
Rogue
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by Rogue »

http://www.mr2supergt.com/

At the first round in March there were two fairly standard 2.0l mk2 turbos, a very modified 2.2l mk2 turbo and 2.0l 2ZZ mk3 turbo. At the Anglesey round in May they will be joined by a pair of 3.5l V6 mk3s, a 2.0l 3SGTE mk3 and at least one more 2.0l turbo mk2.

As long as you don't exceed 250bhp/ton and your engine and gearbox are both Toyota parts pretty much anything goes!
loudandproud205
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by loudandproud205 »

thankyou that was a very interesting read.

am some what of a competetive level yet, but its something id like to aim towards
Rogue
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Re: NA MR2 any good as a track car?

Post by Rogue »

You'd be surprised - there are two classes at 200 and 250 bhp per ton respectively. The lower class limit is very easy to hit with an unmodified mk2 turbo. At Snetterton I ran a car that was nothing more than a Championship car with a (stock) rev 3 turbo transplant and the control suspension fitted. Running 1.2bar through an ST205 chargecooler it was bang on the money power-to-weight wise for the GT200 class and it took Simon Phillips in his GT250 class car a good few laps to shake me off!

I've designed the series in such a way that you can simply add brute force, or you can be a bit more elegant and resourceful... and everything in between! I'm really looking forwards to seeing how the naturally aspirated cars get on, and I'm itching to do something with the BEAMS engine that's been sat in the workshop for ages.
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