[Mk2] [Turbo] limits of stock rev3 internals + what would this spec develop

[rookie-racer]

hi, just wondering if anyone had any idea, how much you can develop from stock rev three internals with supporting mods?? is there a point at which the internals say enough is enough? fortuanately im not goin to rag it to death - i spend far too much time driving diesel to enjoy thrashing an engine to the redline.

to let you understand, im just trying to balance my buils spec, Im midst transplant, going for rev3 tubby - stock engine, onto which i am bolting a st205cc cooling boost from either my stage 2 hybrid ct26 or maybe going to go for a gt3071, aspiration is coming from an apexi induction kit and berk tech exhaust...

I am just about to start buying fueling etc and want to know how far i can go so i only buy as big as i need. I was thinking 850cc injectors 255lph pump and uprated preessure regulator standalone ecu - either link or motec.

cheers - jay

[Harry]

Hi Jay,:D


Stock OEM 'piston-rings' are the weakest link under pressure so would have to be forged pistons and rings as number one priority.Then big end and other bearings.With an aftermarket ECU top mappers with not too lean a map and good AFR a lot of power could be run off this basic set up 450 hp.

Obviously with a large GT turbo and fuelling en cooling.Next stage could be all new head studs and Internal engine studs stronger pressure rating,but not fully essential but worth doing for the long run and or both peace of mind. 1 mm oversized Ferreira valves Is an option with say HKS 264 cams.Can balance the other Internal parts.The bottom end Is bullet proof 500 hp+.Job done keep It straight forward.


The fact of the matter engine building Is a highly specialised field unless you know what you are doing are a mechanic other than that the parts need to be balanced matched up ported mated and fitted the right way to last prevent oil being chewed and so on.So more Important that the parts might be just who does the job.There Is no such thing as just fitting In pistons so to speak and the long road to a proper engine build Is the only option to consider.The largest part of costs Is labour engine out engine In open remove then place parts In set up match up etc..



Harry

[Mikey P MR2]

Have you heard of Xxxx (builds quite a few big power mr2's) he is currently building a "10 second" mr2 on stock rev3 internals its documented on xxxx.

[Martin F]

was skip 123 not running 390 bhp on standard internals...

the engine gave in after a while but i don't know what his driving style was like, im sure he will be along sooner or later...

with the right mods and not booting it all the time then there is no reason you couldn't have a safe 350 + bhp car

[rookie-racer]

harry - sorry to put a dampener on things, but this excercise is only to get as much out of a stock rev3 - i am refusing to open it or drop serious money inside the 3sgte as i'd rather sink that money towards a built 3vzfe from paul woods... for which i'll have the fueling and turbo already in place by the end of this build btw - at what point do these piston rings become the problem - and is that the rings themselves or the lands in the pistons?

mikey - please tell me that isnt the guy who was at the center of the furory a few years back where he claimed to have scored a low ten at york that was infact a 11.4, left me wondering how much i could believe what he said. should i dig him up and follow his work?


mrtee - skipp 123 - that was bryans old car? or was skipp 123 ryan g's old car, or am i barking up a totally different tree?

anyways- if my power goals were only 400ish horse, as near as damnit the same in torque, rarely exceeding 6000 revs is my spec good for that?

[Harry]

harry - sorry to put a dampener on things, but this excercise is only to get as much out of a stock rev3 - i am refusing to open it or drop serious money inside the 3sgte as i'd rather sink that money towards a built 3vzfe from paul woods... for which i'll have the fueling and turbo already in place by the end of this build btw - at what point do these piston rings become the problem - and is that the rings themselves or the lands in the pistons

Jay,from what I gather there Is no specific hard en fast rule to as when an engine goes some people have more luck than other when operating near the limits.Perhaps driving style-production at the time-service-oil-heat temperatures etc.Another thing Is an older engine's bearings could be okay but had a long life the extra pressure could finish them off.They say high revs are worse than high pressure? But add age to the factor too.


Not 100% with the rings question but know broadly these will go It's the pressure that takes them out and then break with In the engine. I had a long chat with Matt-Lyndon/mapper and Tony/engine builder at Rogue Motorsport. Did Mark Edwards not run a stock engine at around the 400 mark-If so what was his ethos here? The events change under boost pressure and the only way to raise the game Is with more boost and a larger turbo and fuelling.

Then there Is the concern of cylinder number three possible running lean? I think a good after market ECU and excellent mapper hold the key to keeping the engine from holding out and most engines do go even If built with the best parts and engine builder If the map Is out It will and does blow up.

My estimate Is 400 hp on a stock engine with some luck.Another way Is to do It and If It does go then move on to the v 6.But If you sell the turbo engine all good now It could contribute to the v 6 now.Extracting power from the turbo engine costs brass-mapping-ECU-turbo-Injectors-fuelling-cooling etc. Then a dodgy turbo could break and take out the engine too another factor.


A v 6 supercharged engine would be a viable option upfront. What do you think. I would need to be fully convinced by the actual design and layout of a turbo'd v 6. Getting away from turbos Is not a bad idea though.I would supercharge a v 6:- 100%

mrtee - skipp 123 - that was bryans old car? or was skipp 123 ryan g's old car, or am i barking up a totally different tree?

Yes-Bry's not Ryan's.
Think cylinder number three got hit.Also know a 800 or 850 cc Injector was faulty before and or after the engine went out but Ian knows here.

anyways- if my power goals were only 400ish horse, as near as damnit the same in torque, rarely exceeding 6000 revs is my spec good for that?

400 torque Is a lot be good to hear who has done this with a stock engine?

[Tasty]

Xxxx is your man , he is a ledgend in 2 land and he is always ready to talk 2s .

[KrisB]

harry mate stop posting in all topics if your out of your depth!
rev 3 internalls should handle 400 all day with the correct mapping

[rookie-racer]

harry - i had it in my brain marc was working with a stock turbo thanks kris that was what i was wanting to hear i was going to go to two bar tuning for the mapping

Is to do It and If It does go then move on to the v 6.

thats what i am going to to, its just that with me hopefully going back to college and possibly about to buy a house, i need a couple of years out of this engine before i do go V6


mrtee - didnt someone adjust skipps map at jap fest or one of the other shows

mikey - i've registered for xxxx forums to get hold of rashid and i'll pm mark edwards later on

cheers all

[Dangerous]

Been thier done that..... made 350 rwhp for 6 months on a stock rev 3 engine with a T04z@ 1.4bar ...ran a 12 sec 1/4 mile and then ........ loss of compression and engine over heats every time the turbo comes in !!! Takes car up to rogue last month and has the engine stripped down to find cracked block cylinder 2 AND mashed piston ringland number 3.....

It was really tying to find the limits of the stock engine and I guess I did ! If you havent got the money to rebuild your engine ( Its costing me loads to do it proper!!) then I would stay away from a bigger turbo etc.... mine was fine at 305 rwhp 1.3 bar on a steel ct20 for about 3 years its only when you put large volumes of boost into a stock engine when things go wrong.... Take it from me a 10sec car on stock internals will only last 10secs!!!

[redeye32uk]

Take it from me a 10sec car on stock internals will only last 10secs!!!

I think Shahids about to prove that wrong, having said that theres a hell of a lot of r&d gone into it and Lots of work to stop it going pop

[Martin F]

harry mate stop posting in all topics if your out of your depth!

that's a bit harsh, the whole point of the community is to help each other out with different opinions from different people, they aren't always right but people should be allowed to try and help as best they can, it's how we all learn...

[redeye32uk]

harry mate stop posting in all topics if your out of your depth!

that's a bit harsh, the whole point of the community is to help each other out with different opinions from different people, they aren't always right but people should be allowed to try and help as best they can, it's how we all learn...

Depends on who you are and what the admins allow you to see

[Tim-B]

so much wrong information in this thread its unreal

499rwhp had been made in the uk on stock internals about 3 years ago and very nearly got into the 10's in the 1/4mile then and lasted alot longer than 10 seconds.

Like some have said its all down to the tuning and actually knowing what your doing with these engines and doing it for yourself. Once you've done it you can see how much rubbish and mis-infromation really floats around forums

Tim B

[rookie-racer]

ah mr xxxx himself -

what do you think of this spec for 400bhp at the top mostly driven in the mid range ie 3-6k rpm,

stock rev 3 block and head
apexi induction kit
berktech exhaust
GT4 st205 cc arrangement
walbro 255 Lph pump
adjustable fuel pressure regulator
850cc injectors on stock rail modified to a dual feed as described at ATS
Link G3 or Motec - dependant upon ryan at 2bar's choice
GM 3bar Map sensor
inlet Charge Temp sensor wired to ECU
boost controled by ECU

turbo

possibly stick with what i have just now, a Turbo Technics Stage 2 Hybrid CT26

or

funds permitting, I might to with a gt3065 / 3071 kit??

[Tim-B]

i've Pm'd you on our forum seeing you've joined

Tim B

[Rogue]

The thing is, there are some physical laws here that you just can't get around. Performance tuning centres around getting the maximum amount of air and fuel into the cylinders and exploding it. The more air and fuel, the bigger the bang and the more pressure the explosion generates. This pressure is what forces the piston downwards, since this is the path of least resistance. There comes a point though where the explosion is so powerful that it's quite literally capable of blowing the engine apart. There are many factors in predicting when this will happen such as the inherent strength of the materials, by what process they've been manufactured, how well the engine has been maintained and others.

In a stock 3SGTE engine, the piston ring lands tend to become the first point of failure - they collapse under the increased cylinder pressures. No amount of mapping is going to get around this because if you're not generating the pressure, you're not generating the power! In our experience, few engines with stock internals last for long past the 350bhp mark.

Few people are prepared to push their engine to destruction, which is where most of the advice on internet forums comes from - recommendations on how far to go while maintaining safety and reliability.

My personal opinion is that you won't reach the power goals that you've specified without opening the engine but I certainly won't be upset if you prove me wrong!

Patrick

[Tim-B]

oh your certainly make the power, and its unlikely if tuned properly to go pop instantly.

But if your planning on using it regularly then drop forgies in there, but that wasn't the subject on descussion, mainly of is it possible, in which case yes it is.

Also cylinder pressures aren't just dictated by how much power you make.

Tim B

[Harry]

The thing is, there are some physical laws here that you just can't get around. Performance tuning centres around getting the maximum amount of air and fuel into the cylinders and exploding it. The more air and fuel, the bigger the bang and the more pressure the explosion generates. This pressure is what forces the piston downwards, since this is the path of least resistance. There comes a point though where the explosion is so powerful that it's quite literally capable of blowing the engine apart. There are many factors in predicting when this will happen such as the inherent strength of the materials, by what process they've been manufactured, how well the engine has been maintained and others.

In a stock 3SGTE engine, the piston ring lands tend to become the first point of failure - they collapse under the increased cylinder pressures. No amount of mapping is going to get around this because if you're not generating the pressure, you're not generating the power! In our experience, few engines with stock internals last for long past the 350bhp mark.

Few people are prepared to push their engine to destruction, which is where most of the advice on internet forums comes from - recommendations on how far to go while maintaining safety and reliability.

My personal opinion is that you won't reach the power goals that you've specified without opening the engine but I certainly won't be upset if you prove me wrong!

Patrick

Thank you for the Information Patrick.The best MR 2 tuners In the UK.

[Harry]

GOODNIGHT.