[Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

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jimGTS
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[Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by jimGTS »

recently went to have my car tuned after replacing my HG by Ryan at 2Bar Tuning.....

basic story is, map sensor converted rev2 jdm engine to run a rev3 power fc...

anyway, i had it road mapped, it was showing high water temps, but not overheating...
week or 2 later, started overheating on high boost....power FC maps were all good, could get decent duty levels on this road map, and this was in 20-25C weather....

replace headgasket, 1mm cometic, and arps studs, and fit a gen3 inlet camshaft while the head is off...(head work done Nathan at Century Motorsport)

now i get it back on the dyno to tweek the map for the gen3 inlet cam, and Ryan couldnt advance timing enough, and there seemed to be no air getting to the engine to mix with fuel, something along those lines Ryan tried to expalin to me....basically had to abort the runs as couldnt get more than 70% on my 540s.....

possible cam timing, igntion timing wrong was a suggestion....and that my turbo was on its way out, i run a ct20b....(lots of oil smelly exhaust fumes at the dyno possibly the reason for causing quite a bit of knock as the octane was being lessened by the oil)...
Went up to see Marc (3SGTE) to check cam timing, thanks dude, and he confirmed everything seemed to be correct in this department, but my pistons and lined up cams showed that my true DTC was at 4degrees on the pully! obviously i timed the car up based on my dtc was at zero....so in theory, my true 10bdtc is actually at 14 on the pully mark....ive heard the marks arnt always true...

anyway, ive also noted that aparently the powerFC controls this ignition anyway, so it doesnt really matter if my car was at 0 or 10, it still would have timed up correctly...

so timing it back up to 14bdtc, prob wont make much difference, but im not sure on this aspect of things??

any suggestions on what else could be causing this low level of duty cycle???

thanks

here are dyno graphs anyway, these are dyno dymanics UK dynos..

note 279hp is at the fly, 235whp at the wheels, 1.1bar, ct20b, 540s, power FC..

Image
Image
Image
Hellboy

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by Hellboy »

Did you lower the boost to say 10 psi see how it ran then.............and what the duty cycle is?

What was the AFR ratio to RPM?? (sorry seen the 2nd pic)

which is the AFR line the bottom one? if so seems to be around 11.5.1 all the way from when you make boost.... Looks fine to me - pehaps there is nothing wrong.

440injectors on mine are at 80% to 85% at 12psi at 8K - if i up it to 15psi they are at 100% from 5750RPM up - you have another 400CC to play with with your bigger injectors.................


only other thing I can think of is your throttle is not fully opening or the TPS is not reporting full throttle..

All your timing does is control the moment of spark in the 4 stroke cycle and at what time it take place in that cycle , if you have too much advance it will be trying to spark the mixture as it is being compressed by the crank and piston and hence trying to send the piston down the way it come whilst its being pushed up - this is what makes you blow pistons etc... Should have little effect on duty cycle. ( but base ignition timing will have a effect on the advance retard curve of the map/ it will either be advanced or retarded if it was first mapped on the TOYOTA 10BTDC mark and not the true one that you have found to be 14BTDC - so have added 4 degrees to the overall curve and taked away 4 degrees of retard from it :()

When my exhaust cam was out of whack - that effected my duty cycly and my car drove like crap as the Valve timing was well out and had a big overlap...

ALso did you try the stock Rev3 ECU to see how it ran then? AFR/POWER
If you had swapped that and saw that the onboost AFR was in the 10s then that would show that the injectors are cucking more fuel in.. ergo are ok and prob the rest of the car.
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by 3S Service Centre »

Too many cooks spoil the broth.
call James on 01256 883386 or 07786073755
jimGTS
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by jimGTS »

3S Service Centre wrote:Too many cooks spoil the broth.


thanks for your input :roll:

but what is your opinion?
Last edited by jimGTS on Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
jimGTS
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by jimGTS »

Hellboy wrote:Did you lower the boost to say 10 psi see how it ran then.............and what the duty cycle is?

What was the AFR ratio to RPM?? (sorry seen the 2nd pic)

which is the AFR line the bottom one? if so seems to be around 11.5.1 all the way from when you make boost.... Looks fine to me - pehaps there is nothing wrong.

440injectors on mine are at 80% to 85% at 12psi at 8K - if i up it to 15psi they are at 100% from 5750RPM up - you have another 400CC to play with with your bigger injectors.................


only other thing I can think of is your throttle is not fully opening or the TPS is not reporting full throttle..

All your timing does is control the moment of spark in the 4 stroke cycle and at what time it take place in that cycle , if you have too much advance it will be trying to spark the mixture as it is being compressed by the crank and piston and hence trying to send the piston down the way it come whilst its being pushed up - this is what makes you blow pistons etc... Should have little effect on duty cycle. ( but base ignition timing will have a effect on the advance retard curve of the map/ it will either be advanced or retarded if it was first mapped on the TOYOTA 10BTDC mark and not the true one that you have found to be 14BTDC - so have added 4 degrees to the overall curve and taked away 4 degrees of retard from it :()

When my exhaust cam was out of whack - that effected my duty cycly and my car drove like crap as the Valve timing was well out and had a big overlap...

ALso did you try the stock Rev3 ECU to see how it ran then? AFR/POWER
If you had swapped that and saw that the onboost AFR was in the 10s then that would show that the injectors are cucking more fuel in.. ergo are ok and prob the rest of the car.


i checked with ryan and he said the tps showed a 4v reading which means it was at WOT...i have had a dyno run on the rev3 ecu, but not after i sorted out the HG..so probably of no use to the thread....(that was in the 9s on boost)...
Hellboy

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by Hellboy »

jimGTS wrote:
Hellboy wrote:Did you lower the boost to say 10 psi see how it ran then.............and what the duty cycle is?

What was the AFR ratio to RPM?? (sorry seen the 2nd pic)

which is the AFR line the bottom one? if so seems to be around 11.5.1 all the way from when you make boost.... Looks fine to me - pehaps there is nothing wrong.

440injectors on mine are at 80% to 85% at 12psi at 8K - if i up it to 15psi they are at 100% from 5750RPM up - you have another 400CC to play with with your bigger injectors.................


only other thing I can think of is your throttle is not fully opening or the TPS is not reporting full throttle..

All your timing does is control the moment of spark in the 4 stroke cycle and at what time it take place in that cycle , if you have too much advance it will be trying to spark the mixture as it is being compressed by the crank and piston and hence trying to send the piston down the way it come whilst its being pushed up - this is what makes you blow pistons etc... Should have little effect on duty cycle. ( but base ignition timing will have a effect on the advance retard curve of the map/ it will either be advanced or retarded if it was first mapped on the TOYOTA 10BTDC mark and not the true one that you have found to be 14BTDC - so have added 4 degrees to the overall curve and taked away 4 degrees of retard from it :()

When my exhaust cam was out of whack - that effected my duty cycly and my car drove like crap as the Valve timing was well out and had a big overlap...

ALso did you try the stock Rev3 ECU to see how it ran then? AFR/POWER
If you had swapped that and saw that the onboost AFR was in the 10s then that would show that the injectors are cucking more fuel in.. ergo are ok and prob the rest of the car.


i checked with ryan and he said the tps showed a 4v reading which means it was at WOT...i have had a dyno run on the rev3 ecu, but not after i sorted out the HG..so probably of no use to the thread....(that was in the 9s on boost)...


Ok the other thing i would suggest you check as was evedent on mine when it was bu88ered.

Watch your boost gauge.
Give it some welly and then let off and see how quick and how low in the negative the neddle flips to - if its slow to respond and only goes to about -5 then id say a cam is out.

It should snap quick and go past -10 on a heathy engine.
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by jimGTS »

i have had off the boost gauge recently....
replacing it for another...
so ive only had my greddy profec to go by, and that reads in something other than hg...

might arrive by weekend, so i can check then...
got another ct20b arriving by then as well, lol...
Hellboy

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by Hellboy »

well regardless of what it reads neagativly , just find out how quick it responds when you come off the throttle
3sgte
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by 3sgte »

100 % definite without a shadow of a doubt the cams are spot on
TDC checked with vernier gauge at both sides of the rock at tdc and centred out to make tdc at approx 4tdc on the pulley
At 4 degrees indicated on the pulley (which has been proved to be true TDC) the cam pulley marks line up exactly with the pressed steel marks on the cambelt cover back plate. But as further proof the cam cover has been removed and the notches on the cams also line up perfectly with the marks on number 1 cam bearing caps :thumleft:
jimGTS
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by jimGTS »

Hellboy wrote:well regardless of what it reads neagativly , just find out how quick it responds when you come off the throttle


will check, easy enough :thumleft:
thanks for your input, if any more ideas, let me no.....
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by jimGTS »

any more ideas folks.....

?

or is a simple case of the turbo i presently have on just cant produce more power at that boost, but i still have plenty of fuel left? turbo on its way out etc etc..
would a turbo on its way out produce less hp tho than a better condition unit? or is it just a case of same power, but one has more shaft play, leakier seals and will either work or not work....
i recently receieved harrys old ct20b to pop on as i beleive the seals are going on mine going by the oily smell on the dyno....first impressions, harrys turbo has WAY less side to side shaft movement than the one i presently have on! :shock: his seemed rock solid! couldnt feel any play.
Ryan.g
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by Ryan.g »

Jim

The Oil from the turbo will be lowering the octane level of the A/F ... FACT reducing the amount of ignition timing you can run...... reducing the power. We know it's from your turbo as your catch can is bone dry.

If a turbo is blowing oil out of the back like yours is then it is defintly going to loose you power. One because of the octane issue above and two because if the play in the shaft is enough to ruin the balance of the unit then the internal parts of the turbo will wear and it will not work to is true efficiency. Hence changing the airflow charactics and the fuel required.

Also DO NOT change the base ignition timing as your car has been mapped to what was thought to be 10 static but as your pulley was wrong then changing it now will advance the static timing and cause the engine to knock.

I will set this to true 10 before it is mapped as can then change the ignition map on the powerfc to suit.

For now get that turbo change, stop asking so many questions all the time :clown: , stop worrying :mrgreen: and try not to boost as much as possible as the last thing you would want is that shaft breaking and the blades going through the engine.

Ryan.
jimGTS
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by jimGTS »

thanks man, but main reason for this thread was to find out whether these particular issues would be the reason why we were only seeing 70% duty, and why were seeing it.

:eye:
lockys96
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by lockys96 »

3S Service Centre wrote:Too many cooks spoil the broth.


my god james, thats a big avatar :mrgreen:
Image
jimGTS
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by jimGTS »

well thanks to ryan and harrys turbo i just pumped out 301hp and 290lb!!!!! at 1.2bar at the fly.

didnt need to time up the car, as ecu controls all that it seems...
so thanks for some of the suggestions here, and ill ignore the ones that wernt exactly productive.

so altho crank mark is wrong, timing wasnt effected on the power FC.....

so it was just down to the turbo....

that 290lb is also holding all the way form 3.5-5.5k! and that 301 peaks and holds from 6-6.5k...

graphs and new thread im sure will appear soon!
:thumleft:
Last edited by jimGTS on Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by raptor95GTS »

is that flywheel or wheels? Glad you got it working
jimGTS
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by jimGTS »

just edited post, yeh flywheel...

this was on a dyno dynamics dyno btw...255whp.
93k mile engine, 92 car, unopened (bottom end), i gota be happy with that, mainly the torque, it just stays strong at 280-290 for half the rev range, so midrange it pulls pretty well...
L0rdMike
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by L0rdMike »

Well I guess if you can get 301 with your set up I guess my 309 cant be too far wrong. I ran the same amount of boost and even have near enough the same torque figure, only difference is Powerstations do these weird calculations and you always end up with an odd at the wheel figure.
jimGTS
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by jimGTS »

L0rdMike wrote:Well I guess if you can get 301 with your set up I guess my 309 cant be too far wrong. I ran the same amount of boost and even have near enough the same torque figure, only difference is Powerstations do these weird calculations and you always end up with an odd at the wheel figure.


94 tranny losses is odd to say the least, lol...
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] duty cycle wont go past 70% on dyno with Power FC????

Post by L0rdMike »

Least your car is running well and are happy with it. :thumleft:
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