MR2 Turbo VS Honda Integra Type R???

[mattcambs]

To be fair, whilst it is sometimes fun to berate Lauren for being anti mk2 and for being the biggest ITR fanboi in the world, she adds a lot to this club.

I, for one, enjoy the banter.

[Frank Grimes]

But surely imoc is for MR2 fanboi's, and Honda forums are for Honda fanboi's?

Seems strange to stick around and knock the car (or a MK of it) when you've 'moved on'.

Rather like the ex-smoker bore who sits there in the pub saying what a filthy habit smoking is (the ones that are loathed by everyone in the boozer...)

[rev3kid]

just because somebody drives another make of car does that mean they are not welcome yes lauren drives a teg but she still puts up useful info for all us mr2 drivers and she has probably drove more cars then Ive had hot dinners

[loadswine]

I have found this thread quite interesting and the DC5 I saw out on track last Saturday was indeed very quick indeed, especially in the wet and windy conditions on the day. I couldn't hear its engine note over mine though!

[Lauren]

But surely imoc is for MR2 fanboi's, and Honda forums are for Honda fanboi's?

Seems strange to stick around and knock the car (or a MK of it) when you've 'moved on'.

Rather like the ex-smoker bore who sits there in the pub saying what a filthy habit smoking is (the ones that are loathed by everyone in the boozer...)

I tend to spend my time in the day to day running of the club more than anything else. A large proportion of my friends still have MR2s and so a large extent of my social life has a lot to do with MR2s. Whilst I have owned three MR2s over a 5 year period and done loads of different things to them etc.. I guess it is inevitable that at some point you'll try something different. We (by that I mean my partner and I) have a MK1 Super Edition so we do still have an MR2.

I guess the interest in the club and inevitable 'stone round my neck' as a result means that i am more intricately wound up in the running of IMOC than MR2s per se if that makes sense? I do enjoy that too and obviously there are lots of people on here that I enjoy some good banter with.

I think what you have to remember is whilst I really do think the mk1 is a great fun car, i've never been a mk2 fan. Ask anyone. So even when all my posts were about modding mk1s (back in the yahoogroup days) I was never waxing lyrical about mk2s. So its not like i've had a mk2 got an ITR and am saying the mk2 is crap.

[Kongaroo]

My only gripe with Lauren is that she probably has the honour of being the IMOC member that single handedly perpetuated the myth that Tubby's can't go round corners. Although it seems to have become popular recently on IMOC to NOT sing the praises of your car

I liken it to when people criticise the handling of American cars like the Corvette for only having leaf spring suspension and being good in a straight line only... except didn't it recently go and beat the Nissan GTR Nurburgring time by some 4 seconds?

She does however make some good posts. Even though I don't think she is always right (ie. sometimes posting strong opinions as though they were fact ) I can appreciate the hard work she must be putting into the club.

[stiggy]

Lauren - how can you talk about the foibles of the MR2 when ITR's are FWD?

I love ITR's btw, they're IMO Honda's 2nd best ever car - and with tightening regulations probably the best we'll ever see! When you cut through the crap, I dont think they're as quick in real life as they are on track though... Incidentally, I was having a good play with one last night in my GT4 - it couldn't even come CLOSE. Let alone if it had been wet.

Why? Because in comparison to pretty much any of its competition ITR's are very much down on power. It's not too bad on track as you can carry a lot of speed through the bends but in real life you have to slow down to much slower speeds and much more often. It's not even like you can really tune them!

Also, reliable as they are, they're hardly infallible. Gearbox's are a weak point, and most cars that have done more than 100k have had the entire suspension setup replaced twice over by now. In comparison to the competition though, they are cheaper - and a LOT more economical. Still a performance car though, with performance prices. They also go for wayyy too much money for what they are. They still go for about 30% of the price they were new, 10 years on!!! Personally, give me an Mi16'ed 205 and 3 grand anyday!

Each to their own I guess. The ITR may be FWD (you are talking to a previously RWD stalwart here!) but it has an amazing chassis with such poise and balance that cars like the MR2 can only dream of. If you can't see beyond the whole 'but its FWD' debate, then you need an education, go drive one.

The thing is its pointless comparing how some ITR did or didn't keep up with you on the road because you have no idea what the driver was like. Probably one of the most impressive things about ITR's is their corner entry speed. I can duplicate what I do on track on the road within reason.

The point is though why would you want to tune an ITR? Its pretty much perfect as it is, this is the beauty of it.

I think they are pretty reliable tbh. Like any car they need maintenance. Nothing outside the normal realms of reliability anyway.

ITR's go for high prices because they are extremely desirable to those in the know and have a good reputation and not without good reason either.

Tbh I find the ITR a devastatingly quick point to point car. I'd be quite amazed if anything left it on a road that has a few bends. I've yet to find something that has.

I'd honestly choose the ITR over an MR2 (and i'm talking Mk1) anyday.

I didn't say FWD cars cant be good, and I intend to drive one this weekend. However, simple laws of physics dictate it would have been better if it were RWD. Therefore, it IS a foible of the car.

The only way you can drive quickly and safely on the road is slow in, power on early and fast out. The simple reason being that you don't know whats around the corner, and if you go in hot and something unexpected happens you're f**ked. ITR's aren't really very fast driven this way.

On track, the ITR's ability to carry speed through the bends is what gives it its pace - and yet it is its downfall on the road, simply because nobody is going to plow into a roundabout at 80 on the road, ITR or not!

Because it's down on power in comparison to it's competition.

As I said, they're more reliable than the competition definitely - but not infallible.

If these car's are driven by "those in the know", how come every time I beat one its because the driver was crap?

If it's a motorway or dual carriageway, anything with a better bhp/tonne will leave it. If it's a winding country road, decent 4WD cars will leave it. If its on track, decent RWD cars will leave it.

Cool. As would I, Mk1's are xxxx!

[Lauren]

I didn't say FWD cars cant be good, and I intend to drive one this weekend. However, simple laws of physics dictate it would have been better if it were RWD. Therefore, it IS a foible of the car.

The only way you can drive quickly and safely on the road is slow in, power on early and fast out. The simple reason being that you don't know whats around the corner, and if you go in hot and something unexpected happens you're f**ked. ITR's aren't really very fast driven this way.

On track, the ITR's ability to carry speed through the bends is what gives it its pace - and yet it is its downfall on the road, simply because nobody is going to plow into a roundabout at 80 on the road, ITR or not!

Because it's down on power in comparison to it's competition.

As I said, they're more reliable than the competition definitely - but not infallible.

If these car's are driven by "those in the know", how come every time I beat one its because the driver was crap?

If it's a motorway or dual carriageway, anything with a better bhp/tonne will leave it. If it's a winding country road, decent 4WD cars will leave it. If its on track, decent RWD cars will leave it.

Cool. As would I, Mk1's are xxxx!

If you can sight a corner you can go fast in to it, no problem. The point is the ITR turns in very keenly and this actually helps it on the road.

If you can sight a roundabout you can go into it very quickly, no problem. Its all about looking ahead.

You beat them because the driver is crap. Simple. In 20 years of driving I can count the number of times on my hand where i've encountered a driver who seems to know what they are doing, it really is that rare. Just because someone is a petrolhead it is not a given that they'll know how to drive.

I don't think its a case of an ITR being slaughtered by a decent RWD car on track or a 4WD car on a twisty road. Its really simple, as far as driving goes unless you are putting your foot down in a straight line which lets face it requires zero skill, its more down to teh driver than it is the car.

Another point is that the ITR handles very much like a RWD car, surprisingly so. It goes into oversteer easier than an MR2 and its got a diff which pulls you out of the corner.

If you think MK1s are crap in comparison to an mk2, then all that tells me is that you must be inexperienced and have obviously never experienced a mk1. Either that or you are not particularly well versed in driving quickly.

[Lauren]

My only gripe with Lauren is that she probably has the honour of being the IMOC member that single handedly perpetuated the myth that Tubby's can't go round corners. Although it seems to have become popular recently on IMOC to NOT sing the praises of your car

I liken it to when people criticise the handling of American cars like the Corvette for only having leaf spring suspension and being good in a straight line only... except didn't it recently go and beat the Nissan GTR Nurburgring time by some 4 seconds?

She does however make some good posts. Even though I don't think she is always right (ie. sometimes posting strong opinions as though they were fact ) I can appreciate the hard work she must be putting into the club.

I don't think its the case that tubbys can't go round corners, its more the case that they do not have a very good balance and so are a real challenge to drive quickly. Whilst I can appreciate the appeal in that to a degree (i've driven tubbys quickly wet and dry on track) it still does not make it a well balanced car which is a bit of a flaw really. With a well balanced car you can exploit the handling more and I think get more enjoyment as a result as you can take it that much further.

I wouldn't necessarily say that everything I say is 'fact'. I think that is your interpretation. Obviously I will jump on anyone who blatantly doesn't think about what they are posting and rightly so I think. I merely argue a point and generally I will not argue a point that I don't think I can win.

Though a car like the corvette may well lap the Ring more quickly than a GTR that does not necessarily make it a better car. You are looking at just one aspect of what the car can do whilst ignoring everything else. I'd rather drive a car that laps slower but is more fun and more involving. I really think it is unforgivable to use leaf springs in this day and age it seems a case of welcome to 1850!

[mr2nut123]

Ive seen the GTR nurburgring lap and if a corvette with 505bhp can beat a GTR with 4wd and 480bhp rated (but i've heard its more near 500bhp standard!) then who cares what suspension it has, its clearly doing its job and thats extremely impressive. It must be the huge torque of the v8 but then again, I would have thought that the GTR would have great torque due to the massive turbos.

[BarronMR]

Just out of interest.

How much more well-balanced in your opinion is the ITR compared to the mk1?

I know you had a track mk1 SC, how would those 2 fair on the track together?

Im asking from both a capability prospective and enjoyment factor.

[Lauren]

Just out of interest.

How much more well-balanced in your opinion is the ITR compared to the mk1?

I know you had a track mk1 SC, how would those 2 fair on the track together?

Im asking from both a capability prospective and enjoyment factor.

I think both are great fun to drive. The ITR is more of a precision instrument and in that respect it does have the edge in terms of balance, being somewhat more progressive. The ITR also has a much keener turn-in than the mk1 which tends to understeer on turn-in thus taking some of the precision out of that aspect.

Mid-corner the mk1 is a lot of fun to balance, though so is the ITR. The ITR will be much quicker into the corners, though perhaps the mk1 might gain some advantage on teh exit though it will be minimal. Obviously you can't powerslide in an ITR but you can in a MK1. Generally though carrying in more speed in the ITR does mean that you tend to drift a fair bit and you'll see more oversteer on turn-in but obviously less on the exit.

I think enjoyment wise, the mk1 is great fun. I do think though (now i've had a chance to learn how to drive the ITR) that the ITR is more fun. If both cars were parked in the paddock i'd take the ITR if i'm honest.

Both cars require quite different techniques to drive and for me the ITR has been a real learning process as historically i've spent all my time in RWD cars of various guises.

The key with the ITR is to use trail braking, so basically you fly into the corner at what seems like an improbable speed, then brake very late and start to turn. As you do this the rear end comes round reasonably quickly, then when you can see the apex of the corner you floor it and it pulls it through drifting out to the exit of the corner. Obviously this is the case for fairly sharp-ish corners (Clervaux at Croft for example) , but for longer corners, like the mk1 its a case of balancing the throttle and vary inputs to adjust the angle of the car, so like a RWD car you steer it on the throttle. In the ITR this means lift to turn the nose in, more power to pull it straight.

I actually had an interesting run round Cadwell in my ITR and Alex (Speedy) in his super dooper modified SC (which has pretty much everything done to it). We were basically having a bit of a play knowing each other well as we do. It was actually pretty close. I think the ITR had a slight advantage and after two laps Alex mumbled some excuse about heat soak as I started to edge away from him.

[BarronMR]

Just out of interest.

How much more well-balanced in your opinion is the ITR compared to the mk1?

I know you had a track mk1 SC, how would those 2 fair on the track together?

Im asking from both a capability prospective and enjoyment factor.

I think both are great fun to drive. The ITR is more of a precision instrument and in that respect it does have the edge in terms of balance, being somewhat more progressive. The ITR also has a much keener turn-in than the mk1 which tends to understeer on turn-in thus taking some of the precision out of that aspect.

Mid-corner the mk1 is a lot of fun to balance, though so is the ITR. The ITR will be much quicker into the corners, though perhaps the mk1 might gain some advantage on teh exit though it will be minimal. Obviously you can't powerslide in an ITR but you can in a MK1. Generally though carrying in more speed in the ITR does mean that you tend to drift a fair bit and you'll see more oversteer on turn-in but obviously less on the exit.

I think enjoyment wise, the mk1 is great fun. I do think though (now i've had a chance to learn how to drive the ITR) that the ITR is more fun. If both cars were parked in the paddock i'd take the ITR if i'm honest.

Both cars require quite different techniques to drive and for me the ITR has been a real learning process as historically i've spent all my time in RWD cars of various guises.

The key with the ITR is to use trail braking, so basically you fly into the corner at what seems like an improbable speed, then brake very late and start to turn. As you do this the rear end comes round reasonably quickly, then when you can see the apex of the corner you floor it and it pulls it through drifting out to the exit of the corner. Obviously this is the case for fairly sharp-ish corners (Clervaux at Croft for example) , but for longer corners, like the mk1 its a case of balancing the throttle and vary inputs to adjust the angle of the car, so like a RWD car you steer it on the throttle. In the ITR this means lift to turn the nose in, more power to pull it straight.

I actually had an interesting run round Cadwell in my ITR and Alex (Speedy) in his super dooper modified SC (which has pretty much everything done to it). We were basically having a bit of a play knowing each other well as we do. It was actually pretty close. I think the ITR had a slight advantage and after two laps Alex mumbled some excuse about heat soak as I started to edge away from him.

Thanks for that insight.

[stiggy]

I didn't say FWD cars cant be good, and I intend to drive one this weekend. However, simple laws of physics dictate it would have been better if it were RWD. Therefore, it IS a foible of the car.

The only way you can drive quickly and safely on the road is slow in, power on early and fast out. The simple reason being that you don't know whats around the corner, and if you go in hot and something unexpected happens you're f**ked. ITR's aren't really very fast driven this way.

On track, the ITR's ability to carry speed through the bends is what gives it its pace - and yet it is its downfall on the road, simply because nobody is going to plow into a roundabout at 80 on the road, ITR or not!

Because it's down on power in comparison to it's competition.

As I said, they're more reliable than the competition definitely - but not infallible.

If these car's are driven by "those in the know", how come every time I beat one its because the driver was crap?

If it's a motorway or dual carriageway, anything with a better bhp/tonne will leave it. If it's a winding country road, decent 4WD cars will leave it. If its on track, decent RWD cars will leave it.

Cool. As would I, Mk1's are xxxx!

If you can sight a corner you can go fast in to it, no problem. The point is the ITR turns in very keenly and this actually helps it on the road.

If you can sight a roundabout you can go into it very quickly, no problem. Its all about looking ahead.

You beat them because the driver is crap. Simple. In 20 years of driving I can count the number of times on my hand where i've encountered a driver who seems to know what they are doing, it really is that rare. Just because someone is a petrolhead it is not a given that they'll know how to drive.

I don't think its a case of an ITR being slaughtered by a decent RWD car on track or a 4WD car on a twisty road. Its really simple, as far as driving goes unless you are putting your foot down in a straight line which lets face it requires zero skill, its more down to teh driver than it is the car.

Another point is that the ITR handles very much like a RWD car, surprisingly so. It goes into oversteer easier than an MR2 and its got a diff which pulls you out of the corner.

If you think MK1s are crap in comparison to an mk2, then all that tells me is that you must be inexperienced and have obviously never experienced a mk1. Either that or you are not particularly well versed in driving quickly.

Obviously, but the reality is most roundabouts have islands in the middle and most bends you cant see round so you cant "sight" the corner in most instances. I know the ITR's turn in is it's strength - it's the reason its so quick on track but the POINT is that you cant use that safely on the road unless you can see far into the distance - and 90% of the time you cant!

I love how in one part of your post you say that the reason I've repeatedly left ITR's is because they're not as good at driving as me, yet in another part of your reply you say "you must be inexperienced and have obviously never experienced a mk1. Either that or you are not particularly well versed in driving quickly." Make your mind up!!

Obviously, driver skill plays a massive part. Nobody's debating driver skill though - we're debating the car. I think that on track with 2 drivers of equal skill, one in something like an VVC Elise and the other in an ITR the Elise will be quicker. Similarly on a bumpy backroad, the ITR may have some grip due mainly to it's low weight but it wont have the traction coming out of corners to put it's power down due to the poor road condition, particularly in the wet.

Cool, kinda like reverse RWD!

Oh I'm sorry, obviously I am just a total doornob who doesn't even have a driving license because I haven't experienced the ALLMIGHTY mk1. I think they're sh!t because they're total rustbuckets! If I wanted a MK1 type of car, I'd go out and get an Elise.

[BarronMR]

Oh I'm sorry, obviously I am just a total doornob who doesn't even have a driving license because I haven't experienced the ALLMIGHTY mk1. I think they're sh!t because they're total rustbuckets! If I wanted a MK1 type of car, I'd go out and get an Elise.

The mk1 isn't really comparable to an elise... The elise is a very focused car, the mk1 isn't.

Also if you can show me where you can buy a road worthy elise for under a grand, Id be rather greatful.

As for rusty, I've got a mk2 and 2 mk1's and out of the 3 the mk2 has more rust.

[Lauren]

Obviously, but the reality is most roundabouts have islands in the middle and most bends you cant see round so you cant "sight" the corner in most instances. I know the ITR's turn in is it's strength - it's the reason its so quick on track but the POINT is that you cant use that safely on the road unless you can see far into the distance - and 90% of the time you cant!

I love how in one part of your post you say that the reason I've repeatedly left ITR's is because they're not as good at driving as me, yet in another part of your reply you say "you must be inexperienced and have obviously never experienced a mk1. Either that or you are not particularly well versed in driving quickly." Make your mind up!!

Obviously, driver skill plays a massive part. Nobody's debating driver skill though - we're debating the car. I think that on track with 2 drivers of equal skill, one in something like an VVC Elise and the other in an ITR the Elise will be quicker. Similarly on a bumpy backroad, the ITR may have some grip due mainly to it's low weight but it wont have the traction coming out of corners to put it's power down due to the poor road condition, particularly in the wet.

Cool, kinda like reverse RWD!

Oh I'm sorry, obviously I am just a total doornob who doesn't even have a driving license because I haven't experienced the ALLMIGHTY mk1. I think they're sh!t because they're total rustbuckets! If I wanted a MK1 type of car, I'd go out and get an Elise.

I don't generally race on the road and really if you are going to have a play its generally not going to be round loads of roundabouts. Still most roundabouts you can sight fairly well. If you can't sight them well then surely both cars would have to slow down anyway.

I know we are not supposed to be speaking about driver skill, but surely you can see that someone's ability is the key ingredient to how quickly they can safely go. Also if a driver hasn't had track experience they are unlikely to realise how far you can push a car and what speeds you can attain.

I think its also worth adding that not every ITR you come up against is going to be interested in 'racing' you. Not everyone will ring every last ounce of power out of their engine just because you pull up beside them.

An Elise is a very light car, so it is always going to be quick on track. I'm not sure how relevant it is as to whether an elise or an ITR would be quicker on track.

An ITR has an LSD so it gets it power down pretty well for the most part.

A Mk1 isn't 'almighty', but they are good fun to drive, rustbuckets or not. I think you have wholly missed this point.

An elise is in another galaxy compared to a mk1 or even a mk2 handling wise and feel wise. Telepathic steering feel is just fantastic. I'd buy an elise too over a mk1 as its just so good. A mk1 is a tenth of the price though.

[flex1984]

well today iv just been out in my m8s dc5,and lets just say it made my mind up that i want one

i was very serprised at how fast it got upto speed,and handling was amazing,me thinking that thay will feel alot slower than the tubby had gone out of the window now.

dont get me wrong i love mr2 but this dc5 just seemed to be a total package for me,

he used to have a dc2 and he did say that the dc5 gave less driver feed back than his older dc2 but the later dc5 pulls alot better after 60ish speeds

anyways i wont one no,lol

[rev3kid]

if you have got a spare 10k laying around then go for it matey

[RobCrezz]

Ive seen the GTR nurburgring lap and if a corvette with 505bhp can beat a GTR with 4wd and 480bhp rated (but i've heard its more near 500bhp standard!) then who cares what suspension it has, its clearly doing its job and thats extremely impressive. It must be the huge torque of the v8 but then again, I would have thought that the GTR would have great torque due to the massive turbos.

Erm, it wasnt the 505bhp Z06 that beat the GTR (GTR is faster), its the 600+bhp ZR1.

[stiggy]

Obviously, but the reality is most roundabouts have islands in the middle and most bends you cant see round so you cant "sight" the corner in most instances. I know the ITR's turn in is it's strength - it's the reason its so quick on track but the POINT is that you cant use that safely on the road unless you can see far into the distance - and 90% of the time you cant!

I love how in one part of your post you say that the reason I've repeatedly left ITR's is because they're not as good at driving as me, yet in another part of your reply you say "you must be inexperienced and have obviously never experienced a mk1. Either that or you are not particularly well versed in driving quickly." Make your mind up!!

Obviously, driver skill plays a massive part. Nobody's debating driver skill though - we're debating the car. I think that on track with 2 drivers of equal skill, one in something like an VVC Elise and the other in an ITR the Elise will be quicker. Similarly on a bumpy backroad, the ITR may have some grip due mainly to it's low weight but it wont have the traction coming out of corners to put it's power down due to the poor road condition, particularly in the wet.

Cool, kinda like reverse RWD!

Oh I'm sorry, obviously I am just a total doornob who doesn't even have a driving license because I haven't experienced the ALLMIGHTY mk1. I think they're sh!t because they're total rustbuckets! If I wanted a MK1 type of car, I'd go out and get an Elise.

I don't generally race on the road and really if you are going to have a play its generally not going to be round loads of roundabouts. Still most roundabouts you can sight fairly well. If you can't sight them well then surely both cars would have to slow down anyway.

I know we are not supposed to be speaking about driver skill, but surely you can see that someone's ability is the key ingredient to how quickly they can safely go. Also if a driver hasn't had track experience they are unlikely to realise how far you can push a car and what speeds you can attain.

I think its also worth adding that not every ITR you come up against is going to be interested in 'racing' you. Not everyone will ring every last ounce of power out of their engine just because you pull up beside them.

An Elise is a very light car, so it is always going to be quick on track. I'm not sure how relevant it is as to whether an elise or an ITR would be quicker on track.

An ITR has an LSD so it gets it power down pretty well for the most part.

A Mk1 isn't 'almighty', but they are good fun to drive, rustbuckets or not. I think you have wholly missed this point.

An elise is in another galaxy compared to a mk1 or even a mk2 handling wise and feel wise. Telepathic steering feel is just fantastic. I'd buy an elise too over a mk1 as its just so good. A mk1 is a tenth of the price though.

You are correct, both cars would have to slow down. However, as I've been saying all along - and this is the root cause of why ITR's aren't as quick on the road as on track - the extra power the competition has over an ITR makes all the difference when you have to slow down.

No doubt, but its pretty obvious when someones trying and when someone isn't. Having now driven an ITR, if you're gonna rev it to 7k chances are you aint gonna stop till it gets close to 9!

True, we're getting a bit off topic there. It is worth noting that Elises aren't much more expensive now though!

The one I drove on sat was running winter tyres (straight off the boat) and there was only one occasion where the wheels span up in 1st which is damn good for a FWD. With decent UK orientated tyres I expect it'll be even better. It still cant launch for toffee though!

No, you wholly missed the joke!

Very true, but it's also a tenth of the price of an ITR!