Is the MR2 Mk2 any good as a trackcar / racecar?

[Daveb]

Im starting to wonder...

Why is there no real interest in using MR2's for trackday cars. Why are there no MR2 race cars, even in Japan? Type MR2 race car in google - nothing!

Statement by the current fomula ford champion:

Leeroy: So how do you find the '2, I mean as a sports car in track conditions - I assume you've had it on the track?

Nathan: as it happens i havent had my car on the track and have no real urge to do it. To be fair apart from the shocks and springs the setup is just std and it handles like a piece of xxxx!

That says a lot to me.

I know there is the MR2 challenge but thats 'Cheap mid engined racing' ie ok they arent the best cars in the world but its cheap racing and if you feck it you wont be crying for months.

Maybe they are under rated and bad reps put people off?

I just get the feeling people laugh because your taking a MR2 on track. Elise owners etc... Taking a cheap wannabe sports car on track? Could be wrong but thats the impression I get.

Im looking just now at either spending 3k to try and get the car how I want it (brakes/suspension/mapped) or give in and try something different!

If I try something different nothing lost nothing gained. If I put 3k into my MR2 it will still be worth 4k or under, would be just as well burning the money. Plus every chav under the sun seems to have a MR2 now.

Whats your opinions on this.

[MartG]

Taken my SC T-bar on track quite a few times, and I think its given a good account of itself in comparison to other cars of similar value - of course things like the Elise/Exige will be faster, but also cost a lot more both to buy and to maintain. They are also fairly reliable - I've been to a few trackdays where the more modern/expensive machinery was falling by the wayside with monotonous regularity, but all our 16+ year old Mk1s just kept on going.

Currently converting a UK spec coupe to SC for track use only

[Lauren]

MK2s suffer more from more rearward weight and a tricky on the limit handling balance.

To me a car that handles well is one that is progressive and informative in what it does. The MK2 does not fulfil the criteria. It is fun in some ways (ie its rewarding if you can drive around its foibles to an extent), but its handling out the box is inherently flawed.

The MK1 is affected similarly but not to the same extent.

Mid engined cars are much harder to get right handling wise, an elise will run rings round it for example.

There are also much better alternatives to put it bluntly.

I'd suggest looking at getting a Front engined RWD car for trackwork. An old beemer (E36, E30), Manta etc... depends on what you fancy.

Mark and I have been umming and ahhing about track cars in this price region and came to the conclusion that we are better off going for caterham hire.

[skinthespin]

Absolute godswallop.

I have repeatidly driven rings around many many so called fast road cars on track, not once in my time on track have I seen an elise that could hold a candle to my MR2, even with an expert driver on board and very sticky tyres at a recent trackday an 160 Elise driver had to move out of my way to let me past. We even had a good chat later on about how understated the MK2 MR2 is, and tbh this conversation has been repeated to me on a number of trackdays of owners of many cars including Porsches, Caterhams, Elises etc etc.

The Mk2 MR2 IS a bit trickier at the limit but if you cope with that its an impressive track tool, its got excellent traction out of corners, reasonable brakes and good grip, why would an old beemer or manta make a better trackcar? Sure they oversteer more but that wouldnt make them a better track car, and theres no way an old manta or 3 series with slow steering would get round a track quicker than an MR2.

To say an elise will run rings round an MR2 is rubbish, they handle better for sure but for pure speed then the Elise is one of the most over rated cars ive seen, usually bought by people who think it will make them fast. Like I say the 1 well driven elise ive seen was still not as quick as a reasonably well set up turbo.

Lets put it this way, my mildy modified MR2 lapped Donington in 1.24secs, which wouldve put me 6th in the 2005 tuner GP, beating an awful lot of other stuff, Check the link, and when you do bear in mind that an awful lot of those cars were big power tuners cars with road legal slicks, my MR2 has dodgy brakes and the tyres I got from a skip. The closest elise (which was far from standard) was nearly 2 seconds a lap slower.

http://www.msttiming.com/brdc/2006/63991.pdf

[Lauren]

Absolute godswallop.

I have repeatidly driven rings around many many so called fast road cars on track, not once in my time on track have I seen an elise that could hold a candle to my MR2, even with an expert driver on board and very sticky tyres at a recent trackday an 160 Elise driver had to move out of my way to let me past. We even had a good chat later on about how understated the MK2 MR2 is, and tbh this conversation has been repeated to me on a number of trackdays of owners of many cars including Porsches, Caterhams, Elises etc etc.

The Mk2 MR2 IS a bit trickier at the limit but if you cope with that its an impressive track tool, its got excellent traction out of corners, reasonable brakes and good grip, why would an old beemer or manta make a better trackcar? Sure they oversteer more but that wouldnt make them a better track car, and theres no way an old manta or 3 series with slow steering would get round a track quicker than an MR2.

To say an elise will run rings round an MR2 is rubbish, they handle better for sure but for pure speed then the Elise is one of the most over rated cars ive seen, usually bought by people who think it will make them fast. Like I say the 1 well driven elise ive seen was still not as quick as a reasonably well set up turbo.

Lets put it this way, my mildy modified MR2 lapped Donington in 1.24secs, which wouldve put me 6th in the 2005 tuner GP, beating an awful lot of other stuff, Check the link, and when you do bear in mind that an awful lot of those cars were big power tuners cars with road legal slicks, my MR2 has dodgy brakes and the tyres I got from a skip. The closest elise (which was far from standard) was nearly 2 seconds a lap slower.

http://www.msttiming.com/brdc/2006/63991.pdf

You should try a comparison with a honda engined elise. Trust me it will run rings round you. I could outdrag a stockish elise no problem in my old SC. But for actual cornering speeds the elise is streets ahead.

Also at Donington, its very much a power circuit, try it somewhere where cornering counts for more like Cadwell or Oulton.

I think you underestimate just how much difference a competent driver makes. I too have overtaken any named car you can think of in an MR2, but if i'm honest i'm not going to get anywhere near say a well driven GT3 (for example) no matter how hard i push the mr2.

At the end of the day you have a MK2 of course you are going to defend it. There are however far more focused and rewarding track cars to drive out there.

[skinthespin]

I don't think the MR2 is the best car in the world, but the Elise is massively over rated, how do you explain a well driven modified Elise with track tyres on being 2 seconds a lap slower than me round Donington, I don't think Donny is especially a power circuit either, if it were the high bhp cars on that list would make more of a showing surely.

I don't agree a honda powered elise will run rings around me, not by a long way.

To say cornering doesnt count at Donington is daft too, there are only 2 proper straights, and Cadwell is just a bit Mickey mouse, you'd be quicker round there in a go kart.

how many well set up Mk2 Turbos have you driven fast? And what sort of lap times are you putting in around Donington, sorry I refer to this circuit alot but its the only one where ive timed myself.

[jonb-]

Gotta say i'm with Simon. I've yet to find an elise, exige or even a 911 gt3rs that's given me any trouble on track. I'm not saying the cars are slower (hell, a gt3rs should run rings around me) but it's fact i've been faster than all of them.

If you can learn to enjoy the rear balance of the mr2 it's a very fast, but very unforgiving track car.

If you think the mr2's aren't all that I challange anyone to come to a trackday with me and Simon and not be impressed.

(FYI, i'm not claiming me and simon are great drivers but all the other mr2's i've seen on track have been fairly rubbish)

[Mikejc]

The MKII with some effort in the suspension department makes for a fantastic track day car IMHO. Yes their are of course better suited cars out there, but when driven well the MKII can make a damn good showing of itself even against such cars! Given the MR2's age and so it's relatively low buying price these days, I honestly can't think of a better car for the track. The term, (bang for the buck) springs to mind! With some thought, effort and money you'll be scaring some cars with pretty big reputations, and if you learn how to drive the car and get used to it's little idiosyncrasies, you'll better some of them too

Take a look at Jeff's website, and in particular his racing history. Very inspiring =D> http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/slips.htm

Mikejc

[skinthespin]

Must admit the 330bhp turbo exige with slicks on at the last day was a bit quicker than me. But not as much as you'd have thought.

Oh, and I struggled to keep that GT3 in my sights that once, but I had really bad, out of shape scrap P6000's on my car then, so ill let him off!

[jonb-]

Must admit the 330bhp turbo exige with slicks on at the last day was a bit quicker than me. But not as much as you'd have thought.

Oh, and I struggled to keep that GT3 in my sights that once, but I had really bad, out of shape scrap P6000's on my car then, so ill let him off!

Yeah, the tyres you got from a skip...

I mean, a 996 911 gt3rs on cup tyres should never hold me up in copse corner at silverstone but it did lap after lap. That's not the car, it's the driver. Perhaps to be fast in an mr2 you just have to be a little crazy and not give a sh*t if you end up in the kitty litter.

[skinthespin]

Agree Jon, you shouldnt be troubling an Exige or GT3, but the fact is the car is good enough that you can trouble a reasonably well driven GT3 if your pushing you MR2 to the limit, no matter how fast you drive a Golf GT1 or a 318 you will never get close to a GT3.

I don't think you have to be crazy, just confident enough to push the car, which most people aren't as they are a little scared of what happens past the limit. After all anyone can jump in an impreza/integra etc and be fast, not so easy with a mid engined car.

I don't think im a slow driver but im not eratic either, ive done 10 or so trackdays this year and only spun twice, both times messing about and showing off to mates/gf at the side of the track, and yet like ive said ive troubled (gone past) machinery thats worth literally 20 times what my cars worth, and more to the point gone past reasonable well driven hardcore track cars.

I

[Lauren]

I don't think the MR2 is the best car in the world, but the Elise is massively over rated, how do you explain a well driven modified Elise with track tyres on being 2 seconds a lap slower than me round Donington, I don't think Donny is especially a power circuit either, if it were the high bhp cars on that list would make more of a showing surely.

I don't agree a honda powered elise will run rings around me, not by a long way.

To say cornering doesnt count at Donington is daft too, there are only 2 proper straights, and Cadwell is just a bit Mickey mouse, you'd be quicker round there in a go kart.

how many well set up Mk2 Turbos have you driven fast? And what sort of lap times are you putting in around Donington, sorry I refer to this circuit alot but its the only one where ive timed myself.

Well, having driven a well setup honda engined elise and various mk2 turbos, the elise is quicker absolutely everywhere. Unless you've got a power to weight more than 350bhp/tonne then you are going to lose out on the straights and given the elise is nearly half the weight of a tubby you are going to be outclassed round the corners. Plus the elise has a far better chassis.

Donny is a power circuit, it has two pretty long straights, especially so the straight between coppice and goddards.

I've driven one well setup tubby and a few not so well setup ones. The well setup one (Toni's yellow rev3) is on teins and its actually surprisingly good. Out of the box though tubbys are really not very good.

I've never timed myself round donny because i've never raced there. I do however hold a lap record round Cadwell, though as its a bit 'mickey mouse' i don't suppose that counts.

[Lauren]

Gotta say i'm with Simon. I've yet to find an elise, exige or even a 911 gt3rs that's given me any trouble on track. I'm not saying the cars are slower (hell, a gt3rs should run rings around me) but it's fact i've been faster than all of them.

If you can learn to enjoy the rear balance of the mr2 it's a very fast, but very unforgiving track car.

If you think the mr2's aren't all that I challange anyone to come to a trackday with me and Simon and not be impressed.

(FYI, i'm not claiming me and simon are great drivers but all the other mr2's i've seen on track have been fairly rubbish)

I think half the trouble is that people compare their cars with others judging by how well they keep up with a given car on track. The fact is that its far more down to the driver than the car. A well driven GT3RS would be long gone, you wouldn't stand a hope in hell of keeping up. To compare a tubby to a GT3RS is taking the mickey. Having been in a GT3RS around the Ring i can confirm that it was in another galaxy in every respect.

Don't get me wrong i'm not saying the tubby is a rubbish car, it can be a lot of fun, i've enjoyed driving a tubby on occassion. I've done trackdays for a long time now.

I think you miss a significant part of the picture by relating how quick a car is on track with how much fun it is. It is not necessarily a positive correlation.

My advice?

Buy or hire a caterham. thats where its at.

[skinthespin]

Buy or hire a caterham. thats where its at

Bit predictable. if you want that much of a thrill get a bike.

All I know is every time without fail I go on a trackday and elises of all guises get in the way (they cant all be driven by muppets), Ive never wanted more power round donny, only more grip and better brakes, if it were a power circuit why are bike engined caterhams so quick, they are pretty useless above 100mph and I was outdragging them everywhere, but over a lap they were much quicker.

I agree Turbos aren't that great out of the box, they are GT cars after all, but without much bother they can be made to go suprisingly quick and are always under estimated. Likewise elises, no matter how great people think they are are always either A) driven by, err, less good people or B)are over rated.

And like I say, my lap time round Donny is nearly 2 seconds quicker than the fastest, modified elise at the tuner GP, so how do we explain that?

[Daveb]

Cheers guys defo got a good discussion going, think Lauren is telling it how it is pretty much too.

A GTRS is £50k worth of car. Different league I think... Ive been out in a couple of caterhams and the main difference is with cornering and braking. Like you wouldnt belive. Never been in a elise.

I dont think driving the car is the problem. I enjoy driving it and it suits my driving style on track - smooth. It is more of a GT car though and it did suit Donnington when I was there and was fast. I have the timesheet from the britcar race and timing myself from the vid cam I was only 5-10 secs off those guys - which for my first time on track I thought was good.

Then you take it to Knockhill and its like whoaa. Dodgy brakes into the hairpin and first corner. Roll through the corner. Lots of grip yes. Fun maybe not, more living on the edge. Certainly I wouldnt hang the tail out round any of the corners because like Lauren said its not predictible. More likely to bite you in the ass.

Oulton Park is kinda half good, half whoaa too lol. As was brands really...

However I am still on a 94 setup. Standard roll bars. Standard bushes. Standard struts. Einbach springs. Standard brakes although uprated items. Power wise im happy.

But is it the chassis to be working on. Yes its good but is it worth trying to improve it. Parts are expensive. Its a heavy car, a lot of the weight in the bulkheads. It doesnt have a roof.

Most people want to drag MR2's. Or drive down the local high street thinking they are great because they have a 'sports car'.

[Lauren]

Buy or hire a caterham. thats where its at

Bit predictable. if you want that much of a thrill get a bike.

All I know is every time without fail I go on a trackday and elises of all guises get in the way (they cant all be driven by muppets), Ive never wanted more power round donny, only more grip and better brakes, if it were a power circuit why are bike engined caterhams so quick, they are pretty useless above 100mph and I was outdragging them everywhere, but over a lap they were much quicker.

I agree Turbos aren't that great out of the box, they are GT cars after all, but without much bother they can be made to go suprisingly quick and are always under estimated. Likewise elises, no matter how great people think they are are always either A) driven by, err, less good people or B)are over rated.

And like I say, my lap time round Donny is nearly 2 seconds quicker than the fastest, modified elise at the tuner GP, so how do we explain that?

I would get a bike, but i'm not allowed one. I've driven caterhams enough to know that they are the most fun i've had in a car on a track (well this side of a single seater anyway).

You must be a very competent driver and you must donny really well. What constitutes as a 'modified' elise? Was the driver any good? Did he know the track well? So many extraneous variables to consider that will no doubt muddy the water somewhat.

From just a quick google i've found a sport elise lapping donny in 1.19secs.

[jonb-]

Gotta say i'm with Simon. I've yet to find an elise, exige or even a 911 gt3rs that's given me any trouble on track. I'm not saying the cars are slower (hell, a gt3rs should run rings around me) but it's fact i've been faster than all of them.

If you can learn to enjoy the rear balance of the mr2 it's a very fast, but very unforgiving track car.

If you think the mr2's aren't all that I challange anyone to come to a trackday with me and Simon and not be impressed.

(FYI, i'm not claiming me and simon are great drivers but all the other mr2's i've seen on track have been fairly rubbish)

I think half the trouble is that people compare their cars with others judging by how well they keep up with a given car on track. The fact is that its far more down to the driver than the car. A well driven GT3RS would be long gone, you wouldn't stand a hope in hell of keeping up. To compare a tubby to a GT3RS is taking the mickey. Having been in a GT3RS around the Ring i can confirm that it was in another galaxy in every respect.

Don't get me wrong i'm not saying the tubby is a rubbish car, it can be a lot of fun, i've enjoyed driving a tubby on occassion. I've done trackdays for a long time now.

I think you miss a significant part of the picture by relating how quick a car is on track with how much fun it is. It is not necessarily a positive correlation.

My advice?

Buy or hire a caterham. thats where its at.

I wont't argue with you, the gt3 should blow me away but i've come up against 4 now, the last being driven by someone who goes to the ring 3-4 times a year and races BMW's in some championship and was still slower. Not by much, and out the corners i couldn't keep up but over a lap of silverstone national, slower. Soon i'll have the floor wiped with me by one and TBH, i can't wait to see what they can really do as i really admire them.

I think another part of it is yes, a gt3rs is miles faster than my tubby but at this sort of level 'miles' might be 2 or 3 seconds MAX round donnington if strangled, and how many people have the balls to drive a 80k car 10/10ths. I know i'd give the curbs a lot more respect if i had to track my 350z.

I've been fortunate enough to do a trackdays in a 997 911 around bedford and i know my tubby was a fair bit faster.

Dave - a gt3 rs is somewhat more than 50k! Go find a faster stock car for 3k and i'll be impressed.

[Daveb]

I can understand why you rave about Caterhams Lauren. They are superb but the ones I were in were race prepared and they were slow on the straight. And that was at Knockhill.

Take them to a big track and they will just go backwards. Aerodynamics of a brick and slow engine.

Plus I want to do the tracks down South and doing a 600 mile round journey in a Caterham isnt something Id look forward to.

[Lauren]

Cheers guys defo got a good discussion going, think Lauren is telling it how it is pretty much too.

A GTRS is £50k worth of car. Different league I think... Ive been out in a couple of caterhams and the main difference is with cornering and braking. Like you wouldnt belive. Never been in a elise.

I dont think driving the car is the problem. I enjoy driving it and it suits my driving style on track - smooth. It is more of a GT car though and it did suit Donnington when I was there and was fast. I have the timesheet from the britcar race and timing myself from the vid cam I was only 5-10 secs off those guys - which for my first time on track I thought was good.

Then you take it to Knockhill and its like whoaa. Dodgy brakes into the hairpin and first corner. Roll through the corner. Lots of grip yes. Fun maybe not, more living on the edge. Certainly I wouldnt hang the tail out round any of the corners because like Lauren said its not predictible. More likely to bite you in the ass.

Oulton Park is kinda half good, half whoaa too lol. As was brands really...

However I am still on a 94 setup. Standard roll bars. Standard bushes. Standard struts. Einbach springs. Standard brakes although uprated items. Power wise im happy.

But is it the chassis to be working on. Yes its good but is it worth trying to improve it. Parts are expensive. Its a heavy car, a lot of the weight in the bulkheads. It doesnt have a roof.

Most people want to drag MR2's. Or drive down the local high street thinking they are great because they have a 'sports car'.

Fair comment. I guess it all depends as to how much you want to get into the whole trackday thing. If you are thinking of just doing a few trackdays a year and want to have a bit of fun in a road legal car, then spending a bit of money on the suspension won't do any harm, though if you still want it to be driveable on the road you may find yourself comprimising your track setup.

I've done trackdays for over 6 years now. Over that time i've done lots of trackdays at circuits all over the UK and Europe in modified MR2s. My best setup MR2 was my stripped out MK1 SC which i used as a road legal track car, ie i drove it to and from the track, on the track and that was about it. Using it as a road car was pretty tiring tbh. Also when you start modifying its easy to spend a lot of money. The other thing you want to think about is that the MK2 is pretty heavy (more of a GT car as spin says) so it will be correspondingly heavy on fuel, tyres, brakes, balljoints and the like. This sends the costs up quite a bit when you add it all up.

I've come to the conclusion that an MR2 will never provide the raw experience of a caterham. So weighing it up i'd rather buy a caterham trailer it to the track and have a lot more fun that way and keep my road car seperate (which is a comfy e36coupe). At the moment we (my partner and I) haven't got the money for the caterham so we are just going to hire one instead until we can buy one.

[Lauren]

I can understand why you rave about Caterhams Lauren. They are superb but the ones I were in were race prepared and they were slow on the straight. And that was at Knockhill.

Take them to a big track and they will just go backwards. Aerodynamics of a brick and slow engine.

Plus I want to do the tracks down South and doing a 600 mile round journey in a Caterham isnt something Id look forward to.

I think whether you get to 110 or a 130 down a straight isn't that important in track driving. Its the corners where the fun is had, straights are merely the intervals between them. Get one in a good spec and they aren't that slow. Needs to be a six speed one tbh.

Trailer or hire a caterham. I've driven one on the road and its a little shall we say 'raw'.

Probably the best compromise of a road/track car would be an elise. It may not be the fastest (unless you have a toyota engined one or a honda conversion) but it will be more fun and far more involving to drive than an MR2.