Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

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mammoo
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:05 pm

Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by mammoo »

Hi all. I recently picked up a rev 2 turbo to use as a track toy :D

Had my first day at Cadwell at the weekend and absolutely loved it. There is a small problem with the wheels though, it came with 17s fitted and they a) need spacers so I get quite bad wheel wobble at 60 - 80mph and b) when cornering very hard the rears rub the arches.

When these tyres are done I'm planning to replace the wheels but the question is what size to go for! I've read that people suggest sticking to 15" or 16" for optimum grip and handling so I was thinking of just going back to the stock wheels but I hear that tyres are tricky to find.

Does anyone have any good suggestions? The car is purely for track use so looks/appearance/road use are irrelevant. I'm planning to polybush, fit white line arbs and coilovers in the near future to stiffen the car right up so need wheels that will work well with that.

Thanks
Race Idiot
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by Race Idiot »

You can get Toyo R888 or Yoko A048 in the std 15in wheel sizes but not cheap.

I run Yoko AD08R in 205/50/16 and 225/50/16 not as sticky as R888 but are better in the wet and on the road.
pistol pete
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by pistol pete »

Them sizes... but run kuhmo v70a v700 tires.... they are amazing wet or dry i ran softs but uf using on the road get medium compound..
Cheaper than the others.. they are good enough msa have moved them and avon zzr's to their own group in the bkue book
Race Idiot
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by Race Idiot »

Forgot about the Kumhos! If they work on the road I might be tempted to get a set after ive worn out the AD08R's!
mammoo
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by mammoo »

pistol pete wrote:Them sizes... but run kuhmo v70a v700 tires.... they are amazing wet or dry i ran softs but uf using on the road get medium compound..
Cheaper than the others.. they are good enough msa have moved them and avon zzr's to their own group in the bkue book


Cheaper sounds good but I can't seem to find Kumhos in 225/50/16. I can only find 225/45/16 but they're £140 each from camskill (is that what you mean't by cheaper? :D )

Is this the right one - Kumho V70A Ecsta Kumho V70 A - 205/45 R16 83V (K60-Medium)?
mammoo
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by mammoo »

Also, does it make much difference what rim width to go for? It looks like 225/50/R16 can fit on anything from 6j to 8j. Is there a preference? Thanks
super
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by super »

Profile should be 45 not 50 too....

John
pistol pete
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by pistol pete »

mammoo wrote:
pistol pete wrote:Them sizes... but run kuhmo v70a v700 tires.... they are amazing wet or dry i ran softs but uf using on the road get medium compound..
Cheaper than the others.. they are good enough msa have moved them and avon zzr's to their own group in the bkue book


Cheaper sounds good but I can't seem to find Kumhos in 225/50/16. I can only find 225/45/16 but they're £140 each from camskill (is that what you mean't by cheaper? :D )

Is this the right one - Kumho V70A Ecsta Kumho V70 A - 205/45 R16 83V (K60-Medium)?


yep thats the sizes i ran 225/45/16 on the back.. they are expensive.. but cheaper than the alternatives when i looked, my also have gone up in price as they were sort of a hidden gem.. but people started to realise how good they are.

still highly recomend them
VanyllaSW20
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by VanyllaSW20 »

driving Track on 16"s is just for people who want to compensate a shitty suspension setup.

better go on light 17"s here.
for front yo can go from a 7-8" wide Wheel ans use a 215/40.
for rear you go from 8"-9" wide wheel using a 245/40

i recommend a rear wheel that is 1" wieder than the front one, then both need to have the same offset.
example.
a well fitment is like F17x8 ET35 / R17x9 ET35

a smaller offset on the rear will also work okay.
ex. F17x8 ET35 / R17x9 ET30

NEVER let the front wheel have a smaller offset (or if you run 8" allround - the same offset)
ex. F17x8 ET30 / R17x9 ET35 or F17x8 ET35 / R17x8 ET35
(may this your issue with the 17"s)

on the wheels width setup you should ever try to keep the same ratio as the OE-Wheels do. you can go wider - and you want to go wider, but when you go 12mm wider in front you should do the same in the rear at least.

The Kumho V70A is a really well working tyre, the Yokohama AD08R too.
if you got some serious weight reduction (under 1050kgs) you can try the AD08 in the "LTS" compound.

polybushind should be your next step.
forget about he whiteline ARB, try adjustable Links (don't know the word.. the links, which link the damper and the ARB)
Coilovers: there is only one way doing it proper: KW V3.
But where one way is, there always is an alternative. Called Bilstein B6, combined with ST by KW Springs.
both working very well when the come out of the box. the Bilstein/ST Package would be easier to handle for a beginner. the KW got more potential for the andvanced driver.
i recommend consulting a nearby suspension eng. or technican to find the right thing for your needs.
SonicSW20
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by SonicSW20 »

VanyllaSW20 wrote:driving Track on 16"s is just for people who want to compensate a shitty suspension setup.


In *your* opinion. :roll:
mammoo
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by mammoo »

Oh no - conflicting advice! Now I'm even more confused :?

Having looked into coilovers a bit more I think they are a bit out of budget for the foreseeable future so I'll need to stick with what I have for now. I'll probably polybush as the next step after the new wheels to make a start on improving it.

So back to the wheels... I'm limited to what I can find cheap on the 'bay but I've seen a set of F16x7 ET38 and R16x8 ET39. I know you said to not have a smaller offset at the front but given the rear is 1" wider and the difference is only 38/39 would that be ok?
Race Idiot
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by Race Idiot »

Gazza_DJ wrote:
VanyllaSW20 wrote:driving Track on 16"s is just for people who want to compensate a shitty suspension setup.


In *your* opinion. :roll:


I feel like thats quite a strong statement tbh, as much as I like the KW suspension stuff hes advising very few people here are going to drop 2/3rds of what their cars worth on coilovers. Especialy one that spends time on track.

I did almost buy a set of KWV3's to replace my old B6/TRD setup, but then I thought am I realy going be able to take advantage of double adjustable coilovers? So I ended up with H&R's due to ease of setup, but im not a super duper advanced driver or whatever.

Still unsprung mass is the same no matter what quality suspension you have, sure a better damper will cope with it better but then why not run the lighter wheel on the better damper anyway?

Plus bigger sidewalls alow you to feel when grip is about to give way which helps when getting a feel for the car. Although the AD08R sidewalls are stupid stiff.

Hell if you are a relative beginner it might be easier to just start out with some cheaper road tyres and then get some track tyres later. I know pistol pete managed to win some sprints with 'crappy' T1-Rs and I used a set for a few trackdays until they melted :eye:
VanyllaSW20
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Location: Germany

Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by VanyllaSW20 »

Gazza_DJ wrote:
VanyllaSW20 wrote:driving Track on 16"s is just for people who want to compensate a shitty suspension setup.


In *your* opinion. :roll:


you could also say "in the opinion of the suspension engineer"

thanks a lot for your cheers :)


"So back to the wheels... I'm limited to what I can find cheap on the 'bay but I've seen a set of F16x7 ET38 and R16x8 ET39. I know you said to not have a smaller offset at the front but given the rear is 1" wider and the difference is only 38/39 would that be ok?"


well.. it would be okay.
a 5mm spacer wont cost much.. if you want - put it on the rear, if you dont want to, forget about it.



"Hell if you are a relative beginner it might be easier to just start out with some cheaper road tyres and then get some track tyres later. I know pistol pete managed to win some sprints with 'crappy' T1-Rs and I used a set for a few trackdays until they melted "


Thats also a good advice. the Bridgestone S001 is an excellent allround-tyre on the MR2. The all-time-favourite T1R from Toyo/Trampio is an excellent budget solution.
I'm Trying out Dunlop SportMaxx RT for the first time this season. the optics are fine and how they feel if you touch them tells your brain "hey we are nice, we work on your car" on the first few little rounds (cold street/ cold tyre) they performed really nice, a steering precision feel thats not from this world..
as i got no real expieriences on them i dont want to tell they are a good choice. but what i felt until now was awesome.. don't know hoy they are priced in the UK but if they are cheaper than the Bridgestone you could give them a chance.


"I feel like thats quite a strong statement tbh, as much as I like the KW suspension stuff hes advising very few people here are going to drop 2/3rds of what their cars worth on coilovers. Especialy one that spends time on track. "


thats why I also advised the B6/ST way.. its the cheapest way to get some serious cornering speeds.
\\VNL.Works
rgb
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by rgb »

stick some standard wheels on it and see what it feels like. it sounds like someone just stuck big rims on and expected it to be better. if they're rubbing then somethings wrong. I love what vanyllas said. straight to the point and ive got 215 245 40s on 17s , cusco shocks and rose joint and polybush . whiteline arb , trd braces. 16s will handle better cause of shitty suspension. get on ebay and buy a set of rims with tyres and it will be cheaper than new tyres.
Race Idiot
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by Race Idiot »

I dont get it, I run a simmilar setup h&r coilovers, trd arbs, carbing braces, fully polybushed but somehow because i run 16 inch wheels my suspension is shitty? I also used to run B6's like vanyllas said but with trd springs instead of ST.
mammoo
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by mammoo »

Thanks for all the input guys - it's very interesting!

So a quick question to those recommending 17" - assuming the car had a good suspension setup, what advantage does a 17" have over a 16"?
craig
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Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by craig »

mammoo wrote:Thanks for all the input guys - it's very interesting!

So a quick question to those recommending 17" - assuming the car had a good suspension setup, what advantage does a 17" have over a 16"?


They look better. :mrgreen:
VanyllaSW20
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Location: Germany

Re: Best size wheels/tyres for track use?

Post by VanyllaSW20 »

215 245 40s on 17s , cusco shocks and rose joint and polybush . whiteline arb , trd braces. 16s will handle better cause of shitty suspension.


i think, you setup is not "the shitty one that i meant". i never got a set of cusco coilvers for testing, so i cant tell exactly how they perform.
but in your setup, i think, there is one little mistake that may makes the car feel to stiff for street usage.
The ARB. Adjustable droplinks (learnt a new word :D) could help here.
The higher the angle of the ARB gets, the bumpier gets the ride. Many peolpe using some short ones all around but not adjustable ones, so the angle could may be too high.. And if the cusco is may similar to TEIN that could cause problems..
Soft damping - hard stabilizing ,if you try to do a good suspension setup for street and trackday-use, that should be your goal.
but here comes one problem with it, mostly the spring rates of the coilovers are too hard, as its wanted to reduce siderolling of the car.
that feels sporty, i dont want to decline, but if you look further it isn't real sporty.
16s will comenspensate the problems given here a bit. why they do, i will explain later in this post..

@RaceIdiot -
well.. text above is for you as well. but some words about the H&R you run. H&R delivers a Set for you.
with a real good damper (which is a modified B6 as H&R dont produces own dampers) and:
an horrific chosen Set of springs. i try to explain.
H&R says: Motorsport Product! but gives you one set of spings. this would work fine on tracks, terrible on streets.
even more terrible on british streets. the big spring is a bit too hard here, the small one (if used by you) performs okay.

Running B6 with TRD (Eibach) spring will make a similar ride quality to the ST-Springs as their spring rates are nearly the same.
they only differ in responsiveness and breakaway (hope thats the right word.. shoot google if its wrong, i mant the force which is initially needed to get the spring going)
I love both, both work really fine, giving a smooth damping, without much springbumping. adj. droplinks on OEM-ARBs will give the fine tune.. (or use the ARBs you have)

what advantage does a 17" have over a 16"?


it was told, that they look better.. hmm not sure about this, i like the "balloony tire look" you get on 16s very much.

but yeah, there are some advantages.
the first one to be told is the possibility of bigger brakes. track usage and bigger brakes should be told in one sentence.
the next bigger is, that on the widht of a tire between 215-255 a 40% tire wall would perform best. thats got more reasons. one i try to explain.
On a wheel a Tire does 2 essentail movements, dont know the words, google tells xxxx.. so.. more explanation

At first we got one movement called "Latsch" in german. thats the movement tire does when punished by longitudal G-Force.
The other one is called "Walk" in german and describes the lateral movement of the tire.
you can set them by choosing the right tire height.
a higher tire wall gives you more safety when driving fast and a comfier ride, but is decreasing the cornering speeds a car can go.
a lesser tire wall stabilizes the ride, increases cornering speeds, increases steering precision, but decreases safety and comfort.

Safety:
i dont want to say its insecure, but again i don't know a better word here. i meant how beginner friendy the ride is..
if a tire is 100% then
i high tire wall would be 60%DriveZone 39% SafetyZone the last one percent is the breakout/crash.
i lesser tire wall would be like 85% DriveZone 14%SafetyZone and again, the last precent is the breakout..

hope you understand..

\\VNL
\\VNL.Works
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