WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

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Lauren
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Lauren »

Fred wrote:I saw a few people knocking the MacPherson strut setup because they make the camber value change , to me this is a good thing .
During cornering the strut compresses and due to the lower suspension link moving in an arc , the camber value is increased .
This is a good thing , because if it didn't , the contact patch of the tyre would be more on the outside edge of the tyre , due to tyre deformation . The increased camber value , allows the tyre to have a fuller width foot print .

With most double wish-bone suspension setups , the wish-bones are unequal in length , this has the effect of increasing the camber value , under compression , just like the MacPherson setup .

When I first got my MR2 it needed new tyres , so I went to the tyre shop . When I got there I had the correct size tyres fitted to the rear , instead of fitting the correct sized tyres to the front , I fitted ones with a lower aspect ratio (195x50x15 instead of the correct size 195x55x15) , because they were cheaper :oops: .
The result was the car tried to throw me off backwards at every bend , this introduction to oversteer was a real eye opener to me and taught me to respect this car like no other before .

Luckily I recognised my mistake and the next set of tyres were of the correct size , and to say the car was transformed is an understatement .

I was amazed that such a small change could upset the car in such a way , I wouldn't have believed it if someone had told me . With the right sized tyres the car has become very predictable and an absolute joy to drive on the ragged edge , it doesn't scare me any more and is easily balanced on the throttle now .

Rev2 MR2-turbo (LSD) , bog standard + K&N panel .


Actually Fred, under compression the wheel goes toward positive camber, exactly the effect you do not want and thus this is why the outside shoulder of the tyre wears quickly on trackdays.

A double wishbone setup means that under compression and throughout the arc of the suspension travel, camber can be a known quantity and engineered to either increase the neg camber or keep it constant etc.
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Fred

Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Fred »

Lauren wrote:
Actually Fred, under compression the wheel goes toward positive camber,


As the strut is compressed , the lower arm becomes more horizontal , this has the effect of pushing the bottom of the strut away from the centre-line of the car , increasing the negative camber value .

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Lauren
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Lauren »

Fred wrote:

As the strut is compressed , the lower arm becomes more horizontal , this has the effect of pushing the bottom of the strut away from the centre-line of the car , increasing the negative camber value .


Until it goes beyond that, then it decreases the negative camber again and goes toward positive. Suspenders on an MR2 have quite a lot of travel.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by PW@Woodsport »

i was intrigued by this debate so i went out of my way to check....so i took a strut off a mk1 at the garage,removed its spring and refitted the strut with a jack under the car and another under the hub.

I then stuck my camber gauge onto the wheel face and took some readings,with the suspension fully dropped and the wheel off the ground i measured 1.5 degrees of POSITIVE camber,then with the wheel on the ground and car rolled back n forth on the jack to settle the tyre at normal ride height i measured 1 degree of NEGATIVE camber (its default setting)...then i started letting the jack down in increments,at a point were the wheel was tucked under the arch,id call it a very hard cornering angle...i measured 1.5 degrees of NEGATIVE camber,an increase in NEG camber of 0.5 of a degree.I then took the suspension all the way down onto an impossible compression (remember there is no spring fitted) and i still measured 1.5 degrees of NEGATIVE camber,this was with the suspension fully bottomed out.

So my findings conclude that there is NO positive camber effect on any level of suspension compression,that only happens on suspension extension above the normal ride height (and only really when the wheel lifts off the ground).

Hope that sheds some light,i found it interesting as its something ive never checked before....also my camber gauge is accurate to within 0.25 of a degree.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Fred »

8) (almost) :P
DotNetter

Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by DotNetter »

:?

Okay, I've never driven on a track and I don't expect to.

I use my MR2 for a daily 60 round-trip commute to Bristol.

I'm currently riding on a set of rev2 15" rims which seem to hold the road quite well. The rear tyres are now due for replacing and I'm trying to decide weather to keep the 15" rims or go for something larger.

given that I'm not looking to go onto a track, how much worse will 17's be for me? Also, when going for larger wheels, would I be "advised" to get the suspension lowered/stiffened or keep it standard?

As a preference I like bigger wheels, but I've experienced a poorly handling mr2 (my last rev 1 which I had a year ago) - that was riding on stock 14" rims with poo tyres and it would throw out all of the place...not looking to repeat that thanks!...but I digress :)

So - for day to day use with agressive yet sensible driving could I go for larger wheels and if so, would I need to upgrade the suspension?

I'm concious that the winter will soon be here so this is making me think I should stick with the 15" rims and dress'em in some good rubber

Opinions?

...and yes, I have just sat here and read through all 6 pages :(

btw, those pics of the suspension that Lauren posted - I have PDF which I bought from ebay which gives a ver detail overview of suspension type - including those diagrams...pm me if u want a copy emailed ;)

Cheers


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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by jonb- »

I'll have a copy wayne.

As for your question, the quick answer would be go for the 17s, get your car dropped and rent a camber guage from sbits and you shouldn't notice much, if any difference.
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Lauren
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Lauren »

Paul Woods wrote:i was intrigued by this debate so i went out of my way to check....so i took a strut off a mk1 at the garage,removed its spring and refitted the strut with a jack under the car and another under the hub.

I then stuck my camber gauge onto the wheel face and took some readings,with the suspension fully dropped and the wheel off the ground i measured 1.5 degrees of POSITIVE camber,then with the wheel on the ground and car rolled back n forth on the jack to settle the tyre at normal ride height i measured 1 degree of NEGATIVE camber (its default setting)...then i started letting the jack down in increments,at a point were the wheel was tucked under the arch,id call it a very hard cornering angle...i measured 1.5 degrees of NEGATIVE camber,an increase in NEG camber of 0.5 of a degree.I then took the suspension all the way down onto an impossible compression (remember there is no spring fitted) and i still measured 1.5 degrees of NEGATIVE camber,this was with the suspension fully bottomed out.

So my findings conclude that there is NO positive camber effect on any level of suspension compression,that only happens on suspension extension above the normal ride height (and only really when the wheel lifts off the ground).

Hope that sheds some light,i found it interesting as its something ive never checked before....also my camber gauge is accurate to within 0.25 of a degree.


Very interesting! you'd actually think that as the lower arm passes into an upward arc that a reduction in negative camber could be the only result due to the fixed points inherent in a macpherson strut. The other thing that has always swayed me is the wearing of the outside shoulders of the tyre during hard cornering plus pictures like this where the outside rear looks very much to be in a state of positive camber:
Image

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Of course a visual cue isn't evidence enough.
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G-LimitedGav

Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by G-LimitedGav »

wat'd u do 2 get an extra 40 hp, id like 2 know :P
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by PW@Woodsport »

perhaps the wear on hard cornering is more down to sidewall deflection and bodyroll giving the wheel a more positive camber angle?? just guessing really,im no race driver.

It seems under full spring compression the bottom arm doesnt go up far enough to go past the maximum extension of the arc if you see what i mean.....in other words it probably is starting to pull the balljoint back in towards the chassis on full compression but it looks like its within 0.25 of a degree if that,certainly my camber gauage didnt pick up on it its that little....i just recorded a constant camber reading of 1 deg neg camber from normal height to full compression,but there was quite a noticeable positive camber increase on full extension when the car was jacked up.

The tyre wear must be down to the whole car pitching onto the sidewall giving a false impression of positive camber occuring,just my thoughts though and not based on any real world track experience,just looking at it from a mechanics point of view.
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Lauren
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Lauren »

Paul Woods wrote:perhaps the wear on hard cornering is more down to sidewall deflection and bodyroll giving the wheel a more positive camber angle?? just guessing really,im no race driver.

It seems under full spring compression the bottom arm doesnt go up far enough to go past the maximum extension of the arc if you see what i mean.....in other words it probably is starting to pull the balljoint back in towards the chassis on full compression but it looks like its within 0.25 of a degree if that,certainly my camber gauage didnt pick up on it its that little....i just recorded a constant camber reading of 1 deg neg camber from normal height to full compression,but there was quite a noticeable positive camber increase on full extension when the car was jacked up.

The tyre wear must be down to the whole car pitching onto the sidewall giving a false impression of positive camber occuring,just my thoughts though and not based on any real world track experience,just looking at it from a mechanics point of view.


Good points Paul and well made too. I must admit to never having done an experiment such as yours. I agree it probably is the sidewall deflecting giving that impression.

You do realise that your findings undermine a lot of what i say about camber control if it doesn't really vary that much.. ;)

Though i guess i can still cling to the lack of progression as you lower the profile which i guess is well demonstrated in the pics above. :P
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by anna »

Right, time for an essay.

'Handling' is a bit of a loose term, but in the case of tyre selection it could embrace a number of things: the ultimate longitudinal and lateral force generating capacity along with slip characteristics which will determine your tractive abilities, how the tyres transmit ride characteristics to the vehicle, it could also imply the type and quality of feedback at the steering wheel.

Smaller rim, larger profile vs larger rim, smaller profile:
In maintaining the overall size of the wheel/tyre combo, you could choose a smaller rim with a larger profile tyre, or a larger rim with a smaller profile tyre. The larger rim selection would mean that the contact patch would be shorter than a wheel with a larger profile (but they would be of the same width). This has several implications, not least minimised tractive capabilities through the reduced contact patch, but also, the pneumatic trail that is generated when the tyre is rolling will act with a smaller lever arm on the steering system, therefore degrading steering feedback.

Smaller rim, larger profile vs larger rim, smaller profile, wider:
Allowing the larger rim to have the same contact area as the larger profile tyres would mean having wider tyres. Now there is no tractive advantage/disadvantage, but the steering feel is still degraded compared to the longer thiner contact patch of the small rim/large profile combo.

In terms of the suspension options and handling, there is a fundamental issue involved in our obsession with aftermarket sus systems - firstly, with cars that are possibly 20 odd years old, there is the issue of wear, so the sus may well need renewing anyway, but the other point is that if you make the sus stiffer, then you will prevent or reduce weight transfer.
Weight transfer effectively limits how much lateral force the tyre will be able to take. The more weight there is on one tyre, the less lateral force it will be able to generate. Even if the weight is transfered off the inner wheel during cornering, the benefit found there will not compensate for that lost by the more laden outer wheel. The more load transfered, the more the total lateral force generation at an axle will suffer. The less load transfer there is, the better grip there will be available to corner.

In terms of camber, you can automatically generate some lateral force by tilting the tyre on it side. In general, cars in static positions are set up with some amount of negative camber (ie top of the tyres = a shorter distance than bottom of tyres across an axle pair). This generates a lateral force acting towards the centreline of the vehicle. When cornering, the outside wheel will provide more force given the extra load on the wheel, which will point towards the centre of the vehicle. In cornering the centrifugal force needs to balanced, and it will act from the centreline towards the outer tyre. Having negative camber automatically helps to balance this force. (The inner tyre will obviously produce a force in the 'wrong' direction here, but given the reduced weight over that tyre, the advantage of the negative camber remains).
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by PW@Woodsport »

well to be honest lauren it surprised me as well,i was expecting to see a positive camber effect on full compression but it just didnt happen,or if it did it was that little it wouldnt matter...i guess if you think about an arm pivoted at one end and swinging in an arc and the horizontal distance it covers at any given angle and then transfer that thinking to a mk1 and the amount the bottom arm is actually moving it probably only alters the distance between the pivot point and balljoint by millimetres.Indeed if the arm is maybe 5 degs below horizontal in its parked position (full weight of the car on its wheels) and on full compression maybe 5 degs above the horizontal i cant imagine theres that much of a length change in the arm,obviously there is but it mustn't be enough to vary the camber significantly.....

Sorry anna its far too early for your post! :D i will have a good read through it later when its not 7am.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by MartG »

Paul Woods wrote:perhaps the wear on hard cornering is more down to sidewall deflection and bodyroll giving the wheel a more positive camber angle??


I think you've hit on it here - in the pics there appears to be an excessive camber angle relative to the road but if you were to measure the camber relative to the car, even under heavy cornering it would probably be correct.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by anna »

Essay number 2 ;)

The mcpherson strut system works by providing an arc like movement in the suspension around an imaginary roll centre (which is some point inboard the car and depends on the control arm angle, and tyre contact point). This means that when the wheel travels upwards in bounce, it will promote more negative camber, and when the wheel travels downwards in rebound, it promotes some positive camber (to whatever the static camber is).

Lauren has noticed that it sometimes looks like you have positive camber in bounce when on track - it should be noted that the above explanation of the arc movement is when the car is on the level. Another aspect of this system is the roll. Now if you include this in the camber calculation (obviously with the tyres relationship to the ground being the important bit), then at large roll angles, the negative camber inherent in the suspension design will be cancelled out and possibly made a positive total camber with the roll of the axle (if you imagine there were an axle connecting the front wheels which ofcourse there isn't).

For what it's worth, it is typical to get 5 degrees or so of roll from a vehicle (if you are trying really hard), and camber design is such that you can get +/- 2 degrees camber without affecting the load carrying capabilities of the tyre, beyond this in either direction, then you will reduce how much load that wheel will be able to take, so limiting the cornering/tractive capabilities of that wheel. It is also clear that the small range of camber adjustment that is available (without sacrificing performance) can easily be overcome by the roll.

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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by SimonPearse »

dont see why rim size /tyre width affects contact area, it's dictated by tyre pressure and reaction.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by jimGTS »

going by ive now had volk 16s, sotck 15s for a months, and my new lightweight 17 now.
by far the better option is the 16s and 17s.

in the 15s, my car felt suicidal, more in a straight line as it happens.
16s, great
17s, feel better than the 16s.

my new current 17inch setup

7.5j fronts, 215/40 et45
8.5j rears, 245/35 (believe to be as close to the stock RR as you can get), et35.

if the sotck 15s offset and width were imporved, i recon they could be awsome as well, however, at the moment in my car (toms rear and front struts, toms antiroll bar, lowered on adjustable suspension), i would have the 17s any day for the handling.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by anna »

SimonPearse wrote:dont see why rim size /tyre width affects contact area, it's dictated by tyre pressure and reaction.


well, sorry, but it does :P

Ok, so my explanations above are taking the tyre to be quite simplistic thing, which it obviously isn't. Tyres really are the true 'black art'. You are quite right that tyre pressures will affect the contact patch, as will the 'reaction' (or load). But, fundamentally, if everything were to remain the same, then the larger rim/smaller profile tyre will have a much shorter, and possibly wider contact patch. simply put the side walls will be unable to deform as much longitudinally, so making the patch smaller.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by jonb- »

Anna, i was so hoping to get in before you on that one, i even grabbed my car suspension theory book to make sure i was waffling off the right sheet but alas, you beat me again.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Lauren »

jimGTS wrote: i would have the 17s any day for the handling.


Jim be careful not to confuse roadholding (ie mechanical grip) with handling which is what the car does once you exceed the limit of grip.
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