WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

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Speedy
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Speedy »

care to enlarge on this implausible-sounding claim?


:)

I /think/ he means a rolling tyre generates no lateral resistance until put through a slip angle


indeed - when stationary, you can lean against the side of the car and it doesn't move. This is because the carcass of the tyre twists and provides a reaction force.

When the tyre is spinning, the point of contact with the ground doesn't have time to twist and generate a reaction force, so the tyre moves sideways, giving you a slip angle and a reaction force instead. If you could somehow push a car sideways when in motion, it would be like pushing a boat sideways through water.

that would be a lateral force not a lateral resistance, and either way that is not seemd to be claimed


que? :-k
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SimonPearse
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by SimonPearse »

indeed - when stationary, you can lean against the side of the car and it doesn't move. This is because the carcass of the tyre twists and provides a reaction force.

oh yes it DOES move! if the car did not move then the carcass would not be twisted.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Speedy »

oh yes it DOES move! if the car did not move then the carcass would not be twisted.


The footprint of the tyre does not more relative to the ground. While in motion the same force applied to the side of the car would result in a lateral translation...
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Leon.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Leon. »

ok, just seen this thread :shock:

Well, I've been pre-occupied with being in Holland, refurbing my flat etc etc so hope you understand.

This is a very good and informative thread, and yes I've read all 9 pages, its taken a long time and I'm defo ready for breaky now so I'll make it quick. Thought I'd add my 2p as I normally do :D

I'm not going to comment on the technical side because its already been explained and I understand 75% of it.

I currently have stock 15" rims on my rev 4 tubby and stock size tyres. Not much has been said about tyre performance thus far, although Anna and Lauren touched upon it earlier..... When I first bought my tubby it had about 3mm of tread on all 4 good brand tyres, and on the second day of owning it I lost it on a roundabout without giving it much stick (thankfully no damage!). 7 days later I did a huge wheelspin, unintentionally, whilst putting down 'a bit' of power in second at 20mph.

So, I went and got myself 4 new Goodyear F1s. OMG, the difference was astounding, and to this day the 'roadholding' has been amazing in wet and dry and have not had even a slight bit of slippage. I appreciate however Lauren's point about having really sticky tyres that prevent the 'real driving experience' of 'handling' and that if I did lose it, I'd probably lose it pretty badly. Just wanted to say that tyre condition and brand is also extremely important to performance.

I never really go round corners particularly fast (usually :lol: ) as admittedly I don't know the limit of the car, and have never done a track day. So for me the F1s are superb. In addition I would like to get some 17" rims :shock: , of course for appearance and not performance.

I will keep the 15" for trackdays should I ever do one and get the 17s for general driving and 'roadholding'.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Leon. »

Question is peeps, what is the best rim and tyre setup for 17s? I believe a popular setup is front 7j 215/40 and rear 8j 235/35??

Don't know if it affects the decision with this but I'm going to be putting on Tein coilovers so I can adjust both ride height and damping :twisted:

Ta
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Andy Jones »

Leeroy wrote:Question is peeps, what is the best rim and tyre setup for 17s? I believe a popular setup is front 7j 215/40 and rear 8j 235/35??

Don't know if it affects the decision with this but I'm going to be putting on Tein coilovers so I can adjust both ride height and damping :twisted:

Ta


The only downside to Coilovers is the width of them over stock which forces you to run a lower offset over o/e rims if you are going for a 7.5 or 8j rim up front. I've been asking around recently and the feedback i'm getting on the Teins has swayed me i recon so i'm going for the Type Flex. I'm just hoping they aren't as chucky as the Cusco's i have on at the mo so i can have a bit more play when i comes to changing rims again. I'm at Rogue Systems on Monday so i'm gonna try and have a nosey at Matt's car and check his Teins to see if they are a bit slimmer.
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Leon.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Leon. »

Andy Jones wrote:The only downside to Coilovers is the width of them over stock which forces you to run a lower offset over o/e rims if you are going for a 7.5 or 8j rim up front. I've been asking around recently and the feedback i'm getting on the Teins has swayed me i recon so i'm going for the Type Flex. I'm just hoping they aren't as chucky as the Cusco's i have on at the mo so i can have a bit more play when i comes to changing rims again. I'm at Rogue Systems on Monday so i'm gonna try and have a nosey at Matt's car and check his Teins to see if they are a bit slimmer.


Just pm'd you, lol!

I am also opting for the Tein Type Flex, and saw a set of the Tein Superstreets (only ride height adjustable) at Rogue only 3 weeks ago...... Patrick bought them for his mk3. They looked pretty slim to me, and I would assume the Flex are not any bigger........?

I'd actually say the diameter of the o/e springs are bigger. :-k
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Andy Jones »

Leeroy wrote:
Andy Jones wrote:The only downside to Coilovers is the width of them over stock which forces you to run a lower offset over o/e rims if you are going for a 7.5 or 8j rim up front. I've been asking around recently and the feedback i'm getting on the Teins has swayed me i recon so i'm going for the Type Flex. I'm just hoping they aren't as chucky as the Cusco's i have on at the mo so i can have a bit more play when i comes to changing rims again. I'm at Rogue Systems on Monday so i'm gonna try and have a nosey at Matt's car and check his Teins to see if they are a bit slimmer.


Just pm'd you, lol!

I am also opting for the Tein Type Flex, and saw a set of the Tein Superstreets (only ride height adjustable) at Rogue only 3 weeks ago...... Patrick bought them for his mk3. They looked pretty slim to me, and I would assume the Flex are not any bigger........?

I'd actually say the diameter of the o/e springs are bigger. :-k


Just got it :)

The o/e front spring diameter is a LOT larger but they don't come down as far :wink:

The o/e strut/shock is slimmer than that of a coilover but it's the cup that the bottom of the spring sits in that is the restriction with o/e suspension - This is why rubbing occurs if you fit a 45 profile tyre to a 17" rim and a 40 profile tyre to an 18" rim on the front and you can't fit 19" wheels.

Coilovers resolve this as they don't have the huge cup for the spring but because the springs are longer they sit behind the rim and tyre taking up more width than the o'e strut/shock which means you have less room to play around with :(

As an example i got hold of some Enkei wheels for mine off an Evo VIII (8x17 et35) and they wouldn't fit on the front with the Cusco's :evil: The rear of the wheel came into contact with the coilover spring seat/lock before i had even tightened the wheel nuts up - With a 215/40/17 tyre fitted they would go straight on with stock suspension.

That's why i'm hoping the Tein's are a bit slimmer [-o< Evo VIII Enkei's will be going on :D

HTH / Made sense
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Leon.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Leon. »

Gotcha :wink:
noidy

Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by noidy »

ok now we worked out whats the best in relation to what ya wanna do, where can i buy some decent tyres ? :whistle:
luthor1
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by luthor1 »

I have read most of this thread, so I hope I am not repeating what someone else has already said!!!

One of the reasons that fitting "different" wheels (I won't narrow it down to bigger) adversely affects the handling is because the point of rotation on the tyre relative to the king-pin can alter. Ideally you want the centre of the tread (when viewed from above) to be to centre of rotation of the wheel when you turn the steering wheel. Ie when you dry steer the car the centre of the tyre remains upon the same piece of tarmac and is the centre of rotation. If, for example, you fit 10mm wheel spacers then the centre of the tyre scribes an arc around the centre of rotation which will reduce the responsiveness of the car and alter the handling.

I first experienced this phenomena on a classic shape mini I modified. On the 10x6 minilites the wheel rotated perfectly about the centre of the tyre, but when I fitted 13x7 this changed the centre of rotation and the handling was affected enormously.

It is important to know the difference between handling and grip (as mentioned earlier) I thought I would just re-iterate it. (simply) Grip refers to the lateral G the car can deliver before sliding, and handling measures the rate of change of radius the chassis can deliver. Obviously tyres affect handling and more grip means faster change, however the term "handling" is used to describe the chassis rather than the tyres.

Fitting large tyres usually means you have spent out of decent tyres, and the extra rubber can create the illusion of better handling rather than an actual improvement.

FYI on my Mk1 I have 15" OZ wheels using the recommended offset and 195x50x15 tyres (AVS Sport atm) and the handling and grip are exceptional.

I had a rev1 mk2 turbo which was awful, basically when cornering, the outside rear wheel would change it's toe settings whel it uncompressed and would fishtail out of corners almost uncontrollably on the limit!!! hehe very scary.

Well, just my 2p worth!
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Lauren
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Lauren »

luthor1 wrote:I have read most of this thread, so I hope I am not repeating what someone else has already said!!!

One of the reasons that fitting "different" wheels (I won't narrow it down to bigger) adversely affects the handling is because the point of rotation on the tyre relative to the king-pin can alter. Ideally you want the centre of the tread (when viewed from above) to be to centre of rotation of the wheel when you turn the steering wheel. Ie when you dry steer the car the centre of the tyre remains upon the same piece of tarmac and is the centre of rotation. If, for example, you fit 10mm wheel spacers then the centre of the tyre scribes an arc around the centre of rotation which will reduce the responsiveness of the car and alter the handling.

I first experienced this phenomena on a classic shape mini I modified. On the 10x6 minilites the wheel rotated perfectly about the centre of the tyre, but when I fitted 13x7 this changed the centre of rotation and the handling was affected enormously.

It is important to know the difference between handling and grip (as mentioned earlier) I thought I would just re-iterate it. (simply) Grip refers to the lateral G the car can deliver before sliding, and handling measures the rate of change of radius the chassis can deliver. Obviously tyres affect handling and more grip means faster change, however the term "handling" is used to describe the chassis rather than the tyres.

Fitting large tyres usually means you have spent out of decent tyres, and the extra rubber can create the illusion of better handling rather than an actual improvement.

FYI on my Mk1 I have 15" OZ wheels using the recommended offset and 195x50x15 tyres (AVS Sport atm) and the handling and grip are exceptional.

I had a rev1 mk2 turbo which was awful, basically when cornering, the outside rear wheel would change it's toe settings whel it uncompressed and would fishtail out of corners almost uncontrollably on the limit!!! hehe very scary.

Well, just my 2p worth!


If you want really good rubber try a set of yoko advan neova LTS tyres in the 195/50/15s. They are lotus elise S1 fronts. The best thing since sliced bread in terms of progression etc. Brilliant in the dry and wet. Work well at 24/30.
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alan wheeldon
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by alan wheeldon »

Ive not read any of this thread really apart from the title :lol:

I know bigger wheels made my MR2 handle loads better!

i went from the standard 15" alloys with toyo tyres to a set of 18" alloys with the same make of tyres. (for me) it made the car handle loads better. I have since given the 18" alloys to my partner so she can run them on her MR2 and i have put my standard alloys back on and its poo!

I want my 18s back :lol:
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Quigonjay »

alan wheeldon wrote:Ive not read any of this thread really apart from the title :lol:

I know bigger wheels made my MR2 handle loads better!

i went from the standard 15" alloys with toyo tyres to a set of 18" alloys with the same make of tyres. (for me) it made the car handle loads better. I have since given the 18" alloys to my partner so she can run them on her MR2 and i have put my standard alloys back on and its poo!

I want my 18s back :lol:


did you ever get the back end out on the 18's and was it easier to bring back in line? i doubt it and i seriously hope your girlfirend never has to find out
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by alan wheeldon »

it didn't step out as much with the 18's on and they are much better on the track than the 15's
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by jonb- »

Alan, this brings it back to roadholding VS handling.

I suggest reading the thread.
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by raptor95GTS »

alan wheeldon wrote:Ive not read any of this thread really apart from the title :lol:

I know bigger wheels made my MR2 handle loads better!

i went from the standard 15" alloys with toyo tyres to a set of 18" alloys with the same make of tyres. (for me) it made the car handle loads better. I have since given the 18" alloys to my partner so she can run them on her MR2 and i have put my standard alloys back on and its poo!

I want my 18s back :lol:


the whole point of this thread was to provide information on a well talked about topic so take the time and actually read the darned thing
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Lauren
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Lauren »

alan wheeldon wrote:it didn't step out as much with the 18's on and they are much better on the track than the 15's


You clearly do not have a Danny honey.

This thread has a lot of good info in it. Please read the thread before posting comments that clearly offer no contribution. If you don't have something worthwhile to contribute to it, then say nothing. At least have the decency to read the thread through first though. :?
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by alan wheeldon »

I had read the original post but i had not read the 10 pages of dribble associated with it.

All i was saying is i disagree with the comment that a greater tyrewall is better for handling and i was giving him a reason why i thought this through my own personal experience. :?
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Re: WHY do bigger alloys mean worse handling?

Post by Speedy »

alan wheeldon wrote:I had read the original post but i had not read the 10 pages of dribble associated with it.


Hmm, thats a shame because there is a lot of useful information contained therein.

alan wheeldon wrote:All i was saying is i disagree with the comment that a greater tyrewall is better for handling and i was giving him a reason why i thought this through my own personal experience. :?


Ok then, couple of questions for you.

What tyres are on your stock rims compared to your 18's?
Have you had a 4 wheel alignment done on your car with your stock rims on?
Does the car grip more *or* handle better with your 18's on? (i.e. if the back-end steps out, can you correct it with 18s on? can you correct it with stock wheels?)
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