[Mk2] [Turbo] 500BHP engine?

[Nickp]

Theoretical question guys - how much (ballpark) would it cost for a 500bhp engine? Based on a good mechanical knowledge to assemble the parts required to achieve this oneself. Starting point would be a good 3SGTE block / crank / rods? / head. We're not talking daily driver reliable / driveable here but it must be capable of 500BHP from this one engine. I'm sure a few of you must have done this on a DIY basis to give me an idea of costs. All will be revealed

[RyanRs]

bottom end about £2.5k if built yourself
Stock gen 3 head, but add cams and verniers so about £600~700 for these.
GTX4088r turbo + everything to make it fit £2500 ish
EMS £750
Twin plate Clutch kit £1k ~ 1.5k
BMIC £500
Fuel system (external) £1500 ish

and add a grand for all the things i have forgotten.

So around about £11,000

[Steve Horrocks]

Stock crank, stock rods, ACL bearings (£80?), forged pistons (£350-400), ARP big end/head/fly bolts/studs (Er, £200?), metal head gasket (rev3 or fancy £120-200), balanced assembly (£1-2k with rest of engine work, rebuild with head etc), fuel pump (Walbro 255 in tank at minimum)(£100?), over 850cc injectors (max safe is around 480 @ 85% duty but can obv be pushed higher or bigger injectors)(£400+?)
Then obviously suitable turbo/EMS & mapping. (£2500?)
Stock cams WILL allow over 500 the trade off is fancy ones will give higher but with slower torque (IMHO)

[Nickp]

Thanks for the input guys
Looks like the bottom ends fairly simple providing I start with a decent engine. Just needs sprucing up with forged pistons, race bearings and ARP bolts.
I can port the head myself which should help things along but could probably stick with stock cams, which'll save a bit.
Looks like the major outlay will be the turbo, ancillaries and engine management. And possibly the clutch kit but hopefully there'll be cheaper options than £1.5K
I'm thinking with some careful shopping and self assembly it could maybe be done for £4-5K

Next question then-
Has anyone seen a Celica GT4 (st185) with the 4WD system removed and another 3SGTE dropped in the back? I'm thinking 4WD, 8cyl, twin turbo, 1000BHP rocket ship!!

[Steve Horrocks]

Pmsl! Sounds fun!! Prob rev2 box up front which will get rid of 4x4 system, then put a full engine/box clip in the rear end on the MR2 subframe?

[Nickp]

Pmsl! Sounds fun!! Prob rev2 box up front which will get rid of 4x4 system, then put a full engine/box clip in the rear end on the MR2 subframe?

Sounds about right to me

[Rosssco]

Surely if you're going to all that trouble, you may as well start with an Aygo...

[Nickp]

A what?

[Nickp]

Sorry, I think I know what one is. Saw one in Morrisons car park this morning But why would I choose a non-descript shopping trolley over a proven 4wd rally car that already has one 3SGTE bolted in the front and hubs in the rear ready to accept the 2nd?

[Rosssco]

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/12/mid- ... se-shogun/

[Rosssco]

Sorry, I think I know what one is. Saw one in Morrisons car park this morning But why would I choose a non-descript shopping trolley over a proven 4wd rally car that already has one 3SGTE bolted in the front and hubs in the rear ready to accept the 2nd?

I'm not really arguing the case of the Aygo, just that installing a second engine in a celica is a pretty extreme concept.. Installing such an arrangement (s) in a shopping city car is obviously the next level of lunacy..

Would the twin engine concept be for some form of competetion? Or just because you could? Either just as valid in my mind...

Ross

[Nickp]

From an engineering point of view it's much easier to fit a 2nd engine into a GT4 than it is to start from scratch and fit 2 engines to a car that wasn't meant to house either of them. I'm sure some company with enough time / skill / money could do it, but that ain't me.
This idea (and that's all it is at the moment) isn't for any particular competition but the aim would be to build a 1000BHP, 200MPH, SUB 10sec car for circa £10K. Can it be done? I don't know, but it's worth thinking about.

[Shmed]

I'm no expert, but I am going through a 500hp build (well 450 to be precise) at the minute,and would recommend starting with an ST205 (or rev 3). The rev 2/ST185 fuelling isn't up to it from what I've learned, the stock cams are different too.

I know Steve got proven results using stock head, but I think that is on a rev 3 head.

I've spent over 6k on parts for the engine alone, not including hoses, bolts. belts etc that probably add another 6-700 quid. Still not finished yet either with the expectation of another 1.5 - 2k to go.

[uglee]

You could start from more humble origins with 2 rev3 engines with bolt on mods?
I know it's only 600bhp, but it's reliable and once all in and all the issues are sorted out (of which there are probably going to be a lot of) then you can start the quest for more power.

[Steve Horrocks]

I'm no expert, but I am going through a 500hp build (well 450 to be precise) at the minute,and would recommend starting with an ST205 (or rev 3). The rev 2/ST185 fuelling isn't up to it from what I've learned, the stock cams are different too.

I know Steve got proven results using stock head, but I think that is on a rev 3 head.

I've spent over 6k on parts for the engine alone, not including hoses, bolts. belts etc that probably add another 6-700 quid. Still not finished yet either with the expectation of another 1.5 - 2k to go.

Good point that man!! Yes rev3 head. Can't you swap a rev3 head onto rev 2 block though??

Although like ug says above, do you need twin 500 or would twin 300 with bolt on's do you?

[mark239]

an evo engine would be a better start tbh

[Nickp]

Yes guys it would be built with lightly tweaked engines to start with, so 'only' 600BHP say. It doesn't need 1000BHP from the off but the potential will be there for the future.

It's a build that could be done in stages-

1. Tweak front engine, have some fun to make sure it's a good 'un.
2. Remove 4WD system and fit 2WD 'box, have some more fun with 300BHP FWD car
3. Then the biggy- Source and tweak complete MR2 Turbo rear clip and 'pop' it in the back of the GT4, have some twin engined fun
4. And finally pull the motors to upgrade to the full fat 1000BHP. Hey presto, an old Celica that'll give a Veyron a bit of a scare

[Nickp]

an evo engine would be a better start tbh

But that'd mean 2 custom engine fits with twice the complications. If an EVO engine was to be used it'd be better to start with an EVO which would bump the cost up quite a bit.
The easiest / cheapest way to 500BHP per engine would probably be a 2.3 SAAB turbo

[Shmed]

You can stick a rev 3 head on a rev 2, and plenty of people have done it, I'm doing it too, and the best piece of advice I could give to anyone thinking about it, would be to just get a rev 3.

Could be a very interesting project though!

[RyanRs]

I think that if you was to play with hybrid head/block combinations then the only way is Gen 3 head / 5s-fe block.