4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Discussion and technical advice for 84-89 AW10 & AW11 MR2. 3A-LU, 4A-GE, 4A-GZE.

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vashy
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4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by vashy »

cam choice

After some research on the US MR2OC I went for HKS 264 in and 256 ex (both exhaust cams with the dizzy gears).

HKS, because people on the US forum seemed impressed with the quality and reported that the cam timing was very close out of the box, and although the lift is increased, you can keep the original valve springs.

my choice of duration - very generally, to make power with an NA engine you need big duration, and lots of revs. However this messes up your low-end, because, amongst other reasons, the increased overlap means that, at low revs, some of the fuel-air mix goes straight out the exhaust while both cams are open together. Also, at idle, some of the air that gets sucked into the cylinder can get pushed back out again, because the intake cam stays open so long. This really confuses ECU when it sees this on the MAP sensor. There are lots of other effects; it is said that the highest you can go with the stock ECU and just fuelling mods is about 272. So, for my low-budget daily driver plus occasional track cam install I needed fairly mild cams. HKS do 256, 264 and 272 cams. There are other manufacturers, you can go over 300 if you want.

different intake and exhaust durations - There are different effects from having a slightly longer duration on either the intake or exhaust, I can't remember what they are now succintly enough to write it. I think that having one cam longer gives you the benefit of that cam opening longer without the drawback of the extra overlap you would get if the other cam was longer too, but I'm not sure if that logic is really true!

both exhaust cams, because the exhaust cams have the gear for the dizzy so you can try using either cam on either side.


Costs
I imported the cams from the US for $600, plus about $60 for delivery. This was back when the dollar was 2:1 to the pound so pretty cheap! (I've had these cams for a while now.) Fuelling is controlled by a 69p potentiometer from Maplins.


Installation

Installation was not too difficult. You need the Haynes or ideally BGB, and a 10mm deep socket with a drive size that will fit on your torque wrench. You might as well change your timing belt at the same time. There are timing marks for both cam gears, the crank gear, and the dizzy, you just have to spot them. Oh and the 'seal packing' mentioned in the Toyota manual is silicone sealant.

I had previously set my valve clearances before I installed my cams, set pretty close, but still in spec. After installation, some valve clearances were a little further out, but all still in spec. With different camshafts! So I am very impressed with the quality and closeness to original spec of the HKS camshafts.

by the way - I have the imoc shim bank if anyone wants it


first start

When it's all back together fire it up! move the dizzy around to get it to start/run. When mine first started it had a lovely brap-brap-brap lope!

tuning.
First, you need to get a ballpark ignition timing by moving the dizzy. Move it one way and it will lope. brrrr-brr-brra-brap-brap. This is more retarded. Move it the other way and it will race with more revs. Brr-brrr-brrrrRRRRAAAAAAHH. This is advanced. Move it so you get a very slight lope for now and this will be safe. Note that the lope will go away somewhat as the engine warms up.

Next, set the ballpark idle AFR, using the adjusting pot by the MAP sensor. With hotter cams your idle will be richer because the ECU picks up the pressure from the air being pulsed back up the intake at idle and mistakenly thinks this is more air going into the cylinders. The idle AFR adjuster has 270 degrees of movement. If you bought the same cams I did, you need about 90 degrees anticlockwise (leaner). You can fine tune it later. You can turn it gently to it's endstops to find it's extents if you like. Note that at the extents, the ECU will think there is an open cicuit or short and just use the middle value, so you can't just turn it all the way to the end. (thanks JMR)

Let the engine warm up to normal temp and turn up the idle speed adjust on the throttle body so it doesn't stall.

Now get your timing light out and set the timing. If you can't get it to run at 800rpm for very long to set the timing, just get it close for now and then skip to the setting the fuelling accurately, then come back to the ignition timing. Either way don't do the screws up to FT yet because we can fine-tune it later.

setting the idle fuelling accurately

The Toyota repair manual states in bold caps that you shouldn't adjust the idle AFR without a CO2 meter. So you should probably go down to your local friendly MOT station. Or you can do it yourself, just adjust the pot until you get highest idle speed. Set the throttle body idle speed so it idles steady, and then make small adjustments to the AFR pot. If you still have the timing connectors shorted, this is good because then the ECU won't try to fight you and adjust the idle speed itself.


Now, fine-tune the idle speed on the throttle body to 800rpm. Then take it for a drive!

It should be running pretty well at this point. If not, double-check your cam timing. Maybe you skipped a tooth. I got my cam timing right so I don't know what happens if you get it wrong.

fine tuning ignition timing on the road.

If your ignition timing is retarded, it will run fine, but you'll be down on power a bit. Throttle will be a bit less responsive. You will notice a big boost in power when the T-VIS kicks in, because the ECU advances the timing at this point (thanks JMR)

gradually turn up the timing and you will notice more power, especially at the top end. If you notice any of the following:
very responsive to light throttle at low revs (2-3k) but car bogs when using lots or full throttle
no T-VIS kick
ECU can't control idle well (bounces up and down again when it falls below 800)

...then turn the timing back down again




fuelling.

The cams give you extra air at high revs. You need some extra fuel. You could get something like a Greddy SAFC, or rising rate FPR, or even a mappable ECU. I used a 1k pot from Maplins, wired into the coolant temp sensor. The ECU thinks the engine is still warming up, and gives you extra fuel. My calibrated ar$e dyno suggested the sweet spot was a third of a turn when running at high revs (>4500). Below this it was best off (no extra resistance). A third of a turn is about 300 ohms which equates to a coolant temp difference of about 20 C (BGB). Not sure how much extra fuel this is.

Let me know if you want to do this and I can tell you the wires to cut.


results

The idle with these cams is fine, with no lope, once you have got it set up well. I actually get a bit of lope when I first start up. Low revs are fine, about the same. I think it's not so good below 2000rpm. From about 3500 you notice more power. 5000-6000 there is a lot more, and it revs all the way to 8000rpm without dropping off at all. I think peak torque has been shifted up a thousand or so rpm.




A couple of months ago I replaced my wiring loom because the old one burnt out (don't think it was caused by my wiring!) and because the pot change adjustment was so small I have left the replacement loom untouched. The results are, still good power, but it starts to drop off slightly from about 7000rpm. I think this is because the standard engine's torque starts to drop off at this point (from when I had my car dyno'd with standard cams) so the ECU is reducing the fuel at this point. But with the longer duration cams, it needs more fuel. I think I will get a spare engine temp sensor and cut the plug of my old loom, so I can wire in the fuelling control pot without cutting my loom... or maybe get a SAFC.....



comments/abuse........
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cartledge_uk
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by cartledge_uk »

Great write up :thumleft:

DId you ever get it dyno'd with the cams in?
vashy
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by vashy »

thanks!

I didn't at the time; it was a budget install. Should do really, get some AFRs too.
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FossMan
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by FossMan »

vashy. Interesting thanks! I actually have some HKS cams that sound similar to yours. I got them by pure fluke... I bought a non-running MR2 about a year ago for £400 because it had a solid floor pan (unlike the one I was driving at the time). Literally was just interested in the shell but when I was breaking the car I took the engine apart out of interest more than anything and found aftermarket camshafts and vernier pulleys.

They have HKS 256 /8.1 printed on them and they both have dizzy gears as you mentioned (I thought this was weird at the time!?)

I got a quote of £300 at a place near me in the South West to have them fitted and set up on a rolling road. Do you think this is reasonable/necessary?

Also there is no mention of vernier pulleys is your article. Would they not benefit your setup? Also interesting what you mention about the fuelling adjustments you made. When I was inquiring about fitment before I was under the impression that this would not need to be altered.
vashy
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by vashy »

LeSpank wrote:Literally was just interested in the shell but when I was breaking the car I took the engine apart out of interest more than anything and found aftermarket camshafts and vernier pulleys.


Wow, that was a lucky find! 8) yeah that's the HKS one 256 duration and 8.1mm of lift

LeSpank wrote:I got a quote of £300 at a place near me in the South West to have them fitted and set up on a rolling road. Do you think this is reasonable/necessary?


I think £300 sounds reasonable. I think that you can move one cam gear clockwise and the other anticlockwise to get more (or maybe less) overlap, which will shift your torque curve up or down the rev range, can't remember which. And there's the optimal setting for each gear individually, once you've taken into account the interaction with the other one..... there is a lot to engine tuning!

I don't think it's worth it though! If you're taking engines apart for fun you'll have no problems fitting the cams, and you can do it properly and make sure the valve clearances are right and all the bolts are torqued to spec. And if you like try adjusting the cam gears yourself and see what difference it makes.

If you do get it set up on a rolling road though, I would get some kind of mappable ECU. There is an old IMOC legend of a car called the moonbuggy, which had a unichip and remap, plus filter, zorst, and intergalactic milage, and it made 140hp. And that was just with the standard cams...

LeSpank wrote:Also there is no mention of vernier pulleys is your article. Would they not benefit your setup? Also interesting what you mention about the fuelling adjustments you made. When I was inquiring about fitment before I was under the impression that this would not need to be altered.

For a given pressure reading from the MAP sensor the ECU doesn't know that your upgraded cams are taking in more air at high revs. (In the USA they have an AFM which will detect the extra airflow so you'll find more cam tuning info on the forum over there) However, from what I have read/experienced, the ECU overfuels for safety at high revs anyway, and those cams really are quite mild (stock duration is 240) so with those cams alone you may well have more air and also closer to optimal AFRs. But I don't know for sure, you should just get a power run on a dyno just to check the AFRs, make sure your fuelling system is healthy at the very least. In fact I really should do that......
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cartledge_uk
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by cartledge_uk »

MK1chris is selling a full USDM AFM set up so you could use that :thumleft:

HKS had 2 sets of 256 cams, the early ones had 8.35 lift IIRC (I have a set of these)
Tiamat
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by Tiamat »

vashy wrote:If you do get it set up on a rolling road though, I would get some kind of mappable ECU. There is an old IMOC legend of a car called the moonbuggy, which had a unichip and remap, plus filter, zorst, and intergalactic milage, and it made 140hp. And that was just with the standard cams...


No reason why not, my MK1b with 185k on it dyno'd at 126bhp with just exhaust, generic air filter and magnecor leads on it. No ECU changes or anything like that. So a good remap with appropriate/better parts would probably add the extra 14bhp.
I am going to live forever, or die trying!
Bender Unit
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by Bender Unit »

They have HKS 256 /8.1 printed on them and they both have dizzy gears as you mentioned (I thought this was weird at the time!?) I got a quote of £300 at a place near me in the South West to have them fitted and set up on a rolling road. Do you think this is reasonable/necessary?


I would just install them on your engine, dial them in to the specs for that cam and then adjust them when you want to see if you can find some extra power. You’re only looking at tweaking the cams a few degree’s either way for optimum performance so you won’t be making massive changes or rendering your car undrivable.

Fit them and have a play!

A 256 is a mild cam anyway on only a few notches on from standard so it’s not a big step in how the engine will run, I can’t see the need for a rolling road a lot of AE86 owners have run bigger cams without bothering with mapping and tuning – the ECU will cope up until a point.

If you check out Club4ag.com in the tech articles section they have a big list of cams for the 4age, base settings and recommended settings people have used – manufacturer base settings are just that and should be used so you can normally get more power by having a play.

Not sure why anyone is worrying about trying to boost the midrange of the 4age though? It doesn’t have one! :D Go for peak power!
FossMan
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by FossMan »

Cheers for the replies bender unit and vashy! Sounds like a bit of research is in order. I could always get them set up on a rolling road at a later date.

I already have a rolling road printout with the standard cams (130bhp) to use as a comparison too.

And agreed on the peak power thing! :mrgreen:
JMR_AW11
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by JMR_AW11 »

This is an interesting thread! :D
Hi vashy
I'm not a tuner but I'm not sure the coolant mod is the right way to go to get more fuel?

It will also advance the timing and this might not be what you want with the bigger charge you get with the bigger cams? I would expect you would need less timing than stock. (but then I'm not a tuner :) )

Note that there are hidden maps in these ECUs that can easily be unlocked for free.

eg there's a pair of maps that are there for lower grade fuel (I think)

i.e. There is an extra fuel correction map added and it richens up the mid/top end. It also selects an alternate ignition map and it generally backs off the timing a bit but I guess you can advance it on the dizzy to make up the difference?

On some ECUs you just snip or fit a link wire inside the ECU to (permanently) access the hidden maps in favour of stock.

If you want to try this you need to tell me which ECU you have.

There is also a 2 wire interface that allows you to alter the timing on the fly (4 settings to suit a 4 way switch?)

I'll have to look up this interface but you can tie one of these two MCU pin inputs to the TVIS output pin on the MCU chip to cancel out the big step in timing when the TVIS kicks in (means you get slightly better timing just below the TVIS activation)


The 2 pin binary interface on the MCU chip can be coupled up to a 4 way switch and this allows:

00 = +2 deg
01 = -4 deg
10 = -2 deg
11 = 0 deg (default setting in the ECU hardware is both pins pulled high to 11)


This switch can be operated with the engine running allowing the timing to be manually adjusted by the driver in real time.

Note that the earlier mk1a and crossover ECUs run LOTS of advance at high rpm and load compared to the last mk1b ECU so I would be tempted to listen for det if you have the earlier ECU.
vashy
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by vashy »

LeSpank - if you do fit them (I hope you do!), you should do what I never did and get a before/after dyno result on the same dyno.

Some surprisingly good results for standard engines coming out here, considering how old they are!

Bender Unit - What cams have the crazy corolla boys been running successfully with the standard ECU then?

Hi JMR!

JMR_AW11 wrote:I'm not a tuner but I'm not sure the coolant mod is the right way to go to get more fuel? It will also advance the timing...


That's interesting, I found a 'sweet spot' of a third of a turn on my pot, but the difference was fairly suble and it is hard to know if that is really the optimum fuelling point if it is changing two things at once...
I don't currently have my pot connected since I replaced my loom.

JMR_AW11 wrote:There is an extra fuel correction map added and it richens up the mid/top end

That sounds ideal! (:

JMR_AW11 wrote:It also selects an alternate ignition map and it generally backs off the timing a bit but I guess you can advance it on the dizzy to make up the difference?


Yes, if my ECU timing gets changed, I'm pretty sure I could find the equivalent spot on the dizzy again. Does it reduce the ignition timing consistently across the map?

JMR_AW11 wrote:On some ECUs you just snip or fit a link wire inside the ECU to (permanently) access the hidden maps in favour of stock.

If you want to try this you need to tell me which ECU you have.


I would like to try this! I have the crossover ECU, 89661-17070.

JMR_AW11 wrote:This switch can be operated with the engine running allowing the timing to be manually adjusted by the driver in real time.


This sounds cool for budget tuning! Might be useful with the alternate map?

JMR_AW11 wrote:Note that the earlier mk1a and crossover ECUs run LOTS of advance at high rpm and load compared to the last mk1b ECU so I would be tempted to listen for det if you have the earlier ECU.


I do notice a big increase in power at around 4500rpm, I haven't heard det, and I have stripped out my sound deadening and detail of engine noise is much clearer now. I will listen out for it. Would I hear it at high rpm, the engine noise is loud then!?
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JMR_AW11
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by JMR_AW11 »

ECU info sent via PM :D



I do notice a big increase in power at around 4500rpm, I haven't heard det, and I have stripped out my sound deadening and detail of engine noise is much clearer now. I will listen out for it. Would I hear it at high rpm, the engine noise is loud then!?

Best if someone else answers this one as I'm not a tuner. I think you are meant to use det phones to listen for it though.
vashy
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by vashy »

JMR_AW11 wrote:ECU info sent via PM :D
thanks!


Meanwile... I've just been out doing some tuning!

effects of changing ignition timing

I've been noticing some things recently, having been thinking about my write-up. My throttle response has felt a bit 'edgy' at certain rpms. My engine sound changes quite a lot at certain rpms, for example it was sounding particularly nice at exactly 3000. Sometimes I think I get surging at certain load/rpms. All very subtle.

Oh, and occasionally when I have a lot of electrical things on and I put the clutch in and let it idle, it will dip below 800rpm, and struggle to get back up there and then rev up higher, and sometimes it would even drop down again and not recover and stall. Just occasionally... So this made me think that my timing was a bit too advanced.

I undid the dizzy bolts and backed it off a touch, so now the ECU can maintain 800rpm idle nicely, even when I turn loads of electrical things on and make the alternator load the engine (from reading JMR's articles, the ECU uses timing advance to maintain idle, i.e. if the revs fall below 800 it advances the timing. I think, if the timing is well advanced already, it doesn't have so much scope for doing this, and it can't do it smoothly and the revs dip down and then bounce up)

I've just been out for a drive, I stuck it in third and at each 1000 rpm I tried different throttle positions, and also tried pressing the throttle in smoothly to wide open and feeling the response. The throttle response is more linear now (i.e. steadily more and more power as you press it more), I'm sure!

Below 2000rpm the engine still feels like it really doesn't like heavy throttle. But light/moderate throttle is fine and I never use heavy throttle below 2000 anyway.

My peak high rpm/WOT power is down very slightly, with my slightly backed off timing, I think. I've heard the 4AGE likes lots of advance at very high revs...maybe it's true.

Another thing I noticed was that the engine revved from 6000-6500 at WOT faster than it did 5000-5500, despite the increased wind resistance at the higher speed. So I think with my cams, my peak torque is definitely higher than normal!

Anyway, it's interesting to note the effects of changing the ignition timing. I really should get it dyno'd!!
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vashy
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by vashy »

right, booked the red monster in at my local tuners for a dyno run, on the saturday after next. 8) 40 quid and they can check AFRs across the rev range as well as horsepowers. this should answer some of my questions hopefully...
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LimeyMk1
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by LimeyMk1 »

vashy wrote:right, booked the red monster in at my local tuners for a dyno run, on the saturday after next. 8) 40 quid and they can check AFRs across the rev range as well as horsepowers. this should answer some of my questions hopefully...


:thumleft: Cool, let us know how you get on John.
vashy
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by vashy »

Limeymk1 wrote:
vashy wrote:right, booked the red monster in at my local tuners for a dyno run, on the saturday after next. 8) 40 quid and they can check AFRs across the rev range as well as horsepowers. this should answer some of my questions hopefully...


:thumleft: Cool, let us know how you get on John.


will do!

It looks like there's a chance I might be able get a dyno result with the secret map Jeremy discovered, but that's only a maybe! I wonder if anyone else in the world has ever done that...
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JMR_AW11
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by JMR_AW11 »

Here's the stock 17070 ECU ign map.

Note: This includes the +3degree correction when the TVIS kicks in above 4650rpm.

Series 1 is lowest load

Series 8 is for the highest load

The second image is for the hidden ignition map.

Both maps show very aggressive ignition timing above 4500rpm and there is a scary amount of advance at high rpm and load. I've checked this on a jig and there really does appear to be this much advance although it does look to be a lot.

The later mk1b ECU (89661-17140) has about 5 degrees less timing at high rpm and load (presumably to suit lower grade fuel better?)


Also note that the 17070 ECU is only mapped to 5200rpm for the ignition. Hence the flatline effect above 5200rpm on all series curves. The earlier mk1a ECU was 'properly' mapped all the way up to 7200rpm in 400rpm steps. Later ECUs compromised the map sizes in order to save memory space to allow space for more complex fuel coding (perhaps for better economy and emissions?)

Any comments on this from anyone?


Image


here's the secret/hidden ignition map for comparison.


Image
vashy
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by vashy »

Thats really interesting, yeah I've got some observations!



Firstly I'm reading these numbers of the graph, let me know if I'm wrong.

peak load, high rpm, ign timing standard map: 37 deg
peak load, high rpm, ign timing secret map: 34 deg


So the secret map has 3 degrees less advance at WOT, high rpm, which is not much - less than the difference between this ECU and the later ECU even..?

For several low rpm, moderate load positions, there is more advance on the secret map! (if I'm reading it right?) (are you sure it's a safe map? :twisted:)

Interesting spike at around 3000rpm, I did notice my engine note changes then, I wonder if this is why...



Anyway, what I would ideally want is, at high rpm/load, we have more air from the cams so, more fuel and, because we have more air and fuel, I think I need (from my very limited tuning experience) slightly less advance. Well got that! Does the hidden map give more fuel at high rpm/load??

Also JMR YHPM, let me know if you didn't get it. Oh and when you say, you've checked this on a jig, what did you do exactly?? Just curious as to how you are testing your results, sounds very thorough!
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JMR_AW11
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by JMR_AW11 »

vashy wrote:Thats really interesting, yeah I've got some observations!



Firstly I'm reading these numbers of the graph, let me know if I'm wrong.

peak load, high rpm, ign timing standard map: 37 deg
peak load, high rpm, ign timing secret map: 34 deg


So the secret map has 3 degrees less advance at WOT, high rpm, which is not much - less than the difference between this ECU and the later ECU even..?

For several low rpm, moderate load positions, there is more advance on the secret map! (if I'm reading it right?) (are you sure it's a safe map? :twisted:)

Interesting spike at around 3000rpm, I did notice my engine note changes then, I wonder if this is why...



Anyway, what I would ideally want is, at high rpm/load, we have more air from the cams so, more fuel and, because we have more air and fuel, I think I need (from my very limited tuning experience) slightly less advance. Well got that! Does the hidden map give more fuel at high rpm/load??

Also JMR YHPM, let me know if you didn't get it. Oh and when you say, you've checked this on a jig, what did you do exactly?? Just curious as to how you are testing your results, sounds very thorough!


Hi Vashy
I think my pm needs a clearout as it is something like 220% overfilled.

Yes you read the maps right.

However, >36degrees advance seems really high to me so I'm wondering if I've got something wrong in the map scaling.

However, I have put the ECU on a virtual (electronic) MR2 jig where I feed it dummy dizzy signals for Ne and G and all other sensors etc.

The ECU thinks it is in a running MR2 and I can measure the timing on a scope. The result I get agrees with what I got from reading the ECU code and the scaling of the ignition timing in the code.

Also, I can find the bit of code that sets the timing to 10deg BTDC for the service mode (T to E1 link fitted)

This shows the right value for 10deg BTDC.

But it might be that I've still missed something and somehow made an error as 36 to 37deg seems really high? :-k

I did wonder if the cambelt stretches slightly at high rpm and Toyota compensate for this in the map? So the 36 deg is really a couple of degrees less than this as a stretched belt will retard the timing?

Apologies in advance if this theory is pants :lol:


The secret fuel map does give more fuel. I'll look at it over the weekend and post up the effect it has over the rpm range.

On the mk1a this map has more map points but the top few points all have the same value so they shrunk the map on later ECUs.

It really is a crude correction map and it applies a % extra fuel according to rpm. It will apply this same % correction at all load settings so it really is a crude map.

That's another reason I think it's an alternative 'safe' map rather than a performance map.

However, it might suit your needs better than the stock mapping.

But then again you will be hard pressed to tell the difference between these fuel and ignition maps on a 'seat of the pants' test drive. Only an AFR meter and an experienced tuner will be able to tell these maps apart IMO.
vashy
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Re: 4AGE budget cam install and tuning

Post by vashy »

I went down to my local tuners and got a dyno result! However, I think their dyno may be a little bit out #-o

Image
Image

that's 184bhp@6962rpm :whistle:

I also wanted to check that the fuelling was still okay at high rpms. The co% at high rpm (hard to be exact, the revs were climbing pretty quick from 5000) was 4.2; the guy said that is was safe at this level, although I would get a bit more power with more fuel.

JMR - your pm is still sitting in my outbox, so I think it will go through once there's space. Mine went over 200% somehow too. You can export all your messages before you delete them though 8)
Last edited by vashy on Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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