FAILED on emissions, on every section! *update, PASSED Mot*

[jimGTS]

for peace of mind, before my mot (next week), i just popped to a garage just to get them to do an emissions test, thought it would be ok, but obviously not...

where on earth do i start getting these to legal limits??


cars a 1998 rev5 mr2 turbo...
its does have a phoenix power CAT

[Kongaroo]

This is the bit when someone will mention the fabled 'Friendly MOT Tester' that I wish I knew too

Joking aside - do you have your O2 sensor feedback turned on in the Power FC? The reason I am asking is your test results sheet shows you to be running at 0.86 Lambda - which is about 12.6 AFR - so it's perhaps not surprising you are failing the test?

Having O2 feedback enabled will at least allow you to idle close to Lambda and might affect the other figures you are getting, as well as allowing the CAT to reach optimum operating temperature? (just a guess as I don't really know much about how CATs work)

[Dangerous]

pm rowland im sure he knows a way round this.... by taking your passenger seat out!!....................

[jimGTS]

How do I go about checking the o2 on the powerfc??

I know I can see the voltage in the sensor check, how do i check what your suggesting in the commander??

Thanks

[Kongaroo]

I don't have the commander - I use a Datalogit instead. In Datalogit O2 feedback can be turned on and off under 'Settings 1' - on the commander it might be under 'Settings' or 'Etc - Function select' menus as O2 F/B control?

Where ever it's located you want to have that 02 feedback enabled - ie. closed loop is enabled.

[steve b]

Jim, you need some one that can map to be sat in your car with the lap top plugged on the machine. I have had to play with my Eunos every MOT to get it through even with a CAT, things like big ar$e injectors ruin emmisions. There are two levels of test the MOT places can do, that are totally legal I forget the exact details, but its times you have to hold the car at certain levels of revs, along the lines of if it immediately passes it doesn't have to go through the "full" test. I couldn't get my car through the full test but I could get it through the initial basic test. I had to pull my idle right down to pass the idle rev check (below 1000rpm I think), then when it went to emmissions part I had to bump the idle up to about 1300rpm then It'd pass all emmissions, I could not pass emmissions if my idle rpm was a pass, had to make on the fly adjustments.

Or just find a dodgy MOT place that'll put the probe up a fiesta or something. (I've never found that place either).

[steve b]

pm rowland im sure he knows a way round this.... by taking your passenger seat out!!....................

I heard about that,... but doens;t the car et recorded as "not passenger vechicle" or some thing that i'm sure would have implications if you got pulled over with someone in the re-installed passenger seat?

[Steve-O 2007]

just wondering, What are the allowed Emissions in Japan as Im guessing PP made the cat as free flowing as possible meaning it will be close to the allowed limit for Japan (since it is a Jap product)

[Marf]

Like I've said twice on MR2OC, reduce the mixtrim to just before the point where the engine wants to stall. Doing that may well get you through the emissions test.

It worked for me on the whole on my old car with big cams and large fuel injectors.

[Kongaroo]

So what was the conclusion with regard to whether the O2 feedback was on or not.

Had a look at your thread over on OC and saw your conclusion that your light load cells for 2500 to 3000 RPM may well need leaning out. It's actually not that surprising as more than likely when the car was being mapped it may not have been operating much in those cells - ie. when stationary at 2500-3000 RPM the car will be operating in different map cells to 2500-3000RPM cruising.

My suggestion with regard to checking that the O2 sensor feedback is on is because it will allow your car to oscillate around lambda even if your map is a little too rich at that map point so long as the operator does not vary the throttle position much.

This is because when O2 sensor feeback is on the power FC will try to make the necessary fueling corrections after a few seconds to automatically to keep the car around Lambda (14.7 AFR). So it's an easy way to check if having the car running nearer to lambda will affect the exhaust gases enough to get you through your MOT.

[jimGTS]

Checked commander.
And the o2 f/b control is off. Just like the boost control kit.

It's got jap symbols next to these options. So I have to asume the o2 one means off because I don't have the boost kit and that is the same symbol.

[Kongaroo]

Checked commander.
And the o2 f/b control is off. Just like the boost control kit.

It's got jap symbols next to these options. So I have to asume the o2 one means off because I don't have the boost kit and that is the same symbol.

Right so if O2 feedback is off then the car will have been running whatever the base fuel map is set to for those load cells - ie. there will be no automatic correction back to lambda by the Power FC. So it sounds like your base fuel map is indeed too rich in those cells representing the car when stationary between 2500 to 3000RPM.

You could ask Ryan to come and adjust it for you or if you have a wideband installed it's easy to do it yourself.

I guess the real question is whether the hi-flo PP CAT is up to the job of getting you through the UK post 1995 CAT emmisions test once the AFR for those cells has been corrected back to 14.7.

How much did the garage charge you for the exhaust gas test btw?

[jimGTS]

£15.
They guessed really as never been asked just to do an emissions test.

Could I not just adjust the fuel with the commander just for emissions, really need a wideband? Woud the o2 sensor option need to be on for the test as well as lean the car out?

Is this really a datalogic job? Or can be done all with the commander?

Cheers

[Kongaroo]

£15.
They guessed really as never been asked just to do an emissions test.

Could I not just adjust the fuel with the commander just for emissions, really need a wideband? Woud the o2 sensor option need to be on for the test as well as lean the car out?

Is this really a datalogic job? Or can be done all with the commander?

Cheers

From what I've read the commander can do nearly everything the Datalogit can - it's just much easier/quicker to do via Datalogit as you can see all the cells at once and flick between menus with the mouse.

It'd be difficult to do without a wideband simply because you'd be guessing what AFR you are running at after you removed fuel using the commander - unless the MOT station is nice enough to let you play around with the map while they have the exhaust gas analyser on the car.

I mapped all my light load/cruising cells with the O2 sensor option switched off so that I knew my base fuel map was essentially about right - ie. around 14.7 AFR. Once mapping was complete I turned O2 feedback back on again so any slight variations from 14.7 are compensated for by the PFC.

If you have a 'perfect' base map then theoretically there's no need to have the O2 feedback on at all. A 'perfect fuel map' is of course open to interpretation but I believe most Catalytic convertors work efficiently when the AFR oscillates between slightly above and below 14.7 AFR.

[jimGTS]

mmm, im guessing im going to need some serious help then to get past this.

be better off sourcing some 540s and popping on a rev3 ecu (ive got the ecu)??

tho i think my setup has been wired to run the sard rx7 850 injectors...

[jimGTS]

Right so if O2 feedback is off then the car will have been running whatever the base fuel map is set to for those load cells - ie. there will be no automatic correction back to lambda by the Power FC. So it sounds like your base fuel map is indeed too rich in those cells representing the car when stationary between 2500 to 3000RPM.

so going by this, couldnt i just run with the o2 function thing "on", and itll put fueling to 14.7?

[Kongaroo]

I wouldn't panic and go swapping off your injectors and ECU just yet.

What you want to find out is whether having your car running at lambda (14.7AFR for gasoline) will allow your car to pass emissions testing.

This is why I made the suggestion to turn O2 feedback back on as this is the easiest way to get the PFC to correct your fueling back to 14.7 AFR for you without you needing to alter the base fuel map yourself. Then retest the emissions and see if the figures have improved or not.

If the car shows you are now running lambda or close to it but the rest of the emissions criteria are still failing by a long way then it might be you need a more effective CAT - remember hi-flo CATS flow more freely but there is some trade off in their ability to control emissions.

Bear in mind that the O2 sensor feedback only kicks in if the throttle is held in a particular position for a few seconds so the operator should try not to move his foot up and down on the accelerator too much during the test. Also initially before it kicks in the car will be operating at whatever it is set to in the base fuel map.

Alternatively ask Ryan to redo that part of the map for you and then retest it

[jimGTS]

Ok cool. Cheers. I understand that all now, LOL.

So werth me just driving down to the garage with normal maps. Then when it's off for mot (the car needs to be driven down the road to the mot center from Kent car craft who I'm using), just quickly pop it to o2 sensor enabled, put boost to wastegate pressure and maybe even lower the rev limit to 5k so it's not boost on to and from the mot place.
Then when I pick it, pop the o2 thing back off and away I go.

If it still fails (I can't get Ryan this week, and mots this week), I'll just have to get him down for the retest and tweak it then.


Dam annoying, cause surely all these 1000hp supras and skylines still need to pass emissions and they'll have more mental fueling then me.

[Kongaroo]

Ok cool. Cheers. I understand that all now, LOL.

So werth me just driving down to the garage with normal maps. Then when it's off for mot (the car needs to be driven down the road to the mot center from Kent car craft who I'm using), just quickly pop it to o2 sensor enabled, put boost to wastegate pressure and maybe even lower the rev limit to 5k so it's not boost on to and from the mot place.
Then when I pick it, pop the o2 thing back off and away I go.

If it still fails (I can't get Ryan this week, and mots this week), I'll just have to get him down for the retest and tweak it then.


Dam annoying, cause surely all these 1000hp supras and skylines still need to pass emissions and they'll have more mental fueling then me.

Ah, I see why you were considering swapping out the injectors and ECU now. Actually those big power cars won't be running massive amounts of fuel at idle or low load I wouldn't think - it'd just be a waste of fuel.

I have the higher lift rev3 GSC 268 cams and 800cc injectors but I still mapped the idle and low load cells to 14.7 AFR just like when the car was stock. Idle is now a little higher at 950RPM. Obviously there's a lot more fuel in those 'under boost' cells now though

Good luck with the MOT anyway- let us know how it goes

[JMR_AW11]

Does the PowerFC have status indicators for things like fuel trim and narrowband O2 sensor?

I would imagine these things could be displayed on the commander unit (or maybe datalogit)

If it has then you should be able to see the o2 sensor status toggling from high to low and back when in closed loop at idle. If it's doing this then it must be close to 14.7:1.

I'm also guessing the ECU will be able to display the fuel trim. i.e. how hard it's having to stretch from the base mapping to keep it in closed loop. This gives a good indication of how close the base mapping is.

So if you turned closed loop to 'on' then you should be able to monitor the above? It might save you a wasted trip to another emissions test.

The stock ECU provides the above basic features so I would guess the PFC will do it as well.

If it doesn't then you could look directly at the o2 sensor voltage at the diagnostic port during idle? Even with a basic voltmeter you should be able to see it flip from weak to rich during (successful 14.7:1) closed loop operation.

This all assumes your current o2 sensor is healthy of course.

Edit: what ignition timing are you running at idle etc?