M3

[mr2nut123]

I think you will find that if you urgently need to adjust the throttle mid-corner you are going too fast for safety on the ROAD

Couldn't have said it any clearer. As for turbo lag, make sure you're going into the corner at the correct speed (comes with experience and balls)

Hypocrite. You have NO experience anywhere but the road so if you claim to have any knowledge of handling, of having "the balls" to throw a car into the corner at the fastest possible speed before it sliding, then you've had the car sliding (else how do you know thats the corret best speed) on the road so who are you to criticise Lauren who has practiced on the safety of the track.

You come across as a silly teenager.

When I take the rip out of Lauren, i'm just doin it to wind her up as she's mature and 'should know better' most of the time.

The roads can be great ways to practise as long as you're on your own in the early hours as i've said before. I don't claim to be perfect and have, and will get it wrong in the future, but without trying to sound like a dick, i've got natural driving talent. Slip ups just happens in cars like these to even the best of drivers, even more so on roads with uneven surfaces and oil.

People change the way they want to be seen as across forums and it's easy to get an image of someone from their posts behind the Internet when in actual fact, in real life i'm a very sensbile guy when it comes to making decisions in my car. I just say what I and most other people think when posting on forums, rather than putting what people want to see

[steve b]

Couldn't have said it any clearer. As for turbo lag, make sure you're going into the corner at the correct speed (comes with experience and balls)

'Hypocrite. You have NO experience anywhere but the road so if you claim to have any knowledge of handling, of having "the balls" to throw a car into the corner at the fastest possible speed before it sliding, then you've had the car sliding (else how do you know thats the corret best speed) on the road so who are you to criticise Lauren who has practiced on the safety of the track.'

This is becoming confused...I hope you're not trying to criticise me for saying that what makes a good track car does not necessarily make a good fast touring road car...in road driving with any modern car of 'sporting' pretentions if you are losing grip significantly on the road you will be exceeding acceptable safety limits.
Just because you know how to provoke and control oversteer on the track it does that mean that you should ever try to demonstrate this 'skill'on the public road...otherwise it's you that is being juvenile.

Nope hence not quoting your original post.

I just think its rich someone agreeing that its "not responsible" and in the next breath talks about having "the balls" to put a car into a corner fast. Especially when he has confessed to never having practised on the safety of a track whereas the person he critisises has.

He says hes fine as he has "natural driving talent" , ......

[steve b]

[
People change the way they want to be seen as across forums and it's easy to get an image of someone from their posts behind the Internet when in actual fact, in real life i'm a very sensbile guy when it comes to making decisions in my car. I just say what I and most other people think when posting on forums, rather than putting what people want to see

Fair enough, but you have to remember we're all into cars and all drive a lot, some more than others, some with more experience than others. Virtually no one professes to be a driving god,.... except you who has less experience then a large proportion of other people. Do you not realise this makes you sound very foolish,... you obviously do as you said it yourself, you don't want to sound a dick.

Why don't you stun us all and sign up to race the MR2 series and kick ass if your so great? I just cringe when I read your posts. You may be a really nice chap, but nice people can still be deluded and you do sound deluded when it comes to driving and MR2's.

[Lauren]

Fair enough, but you have to remember we're all into cars and all drive a lot, some more than others, some with more experience than others. Virtually no one professes to be a driving god,.... except you who has less experience then a large proportion of other people. Do you not realise this makes you sound very foolish,... you obviously do as you said it yourself, you don't want to sound a dick.

Why don't you stun us all and sign up to race the MR2 series and kick ass if your so great? I just cringe when I read your posts. You may be a really nice chap, but nice people can still be deluded and you do sound deluded when it comes to driving and MR2's.

Fair comment Steve. You will know as I do that you cannot truly understand how to handle a car at high and very high speeds without doing it on a track. Sure you can drive fast on the road, but you simply cannot attain the speeds and the predictability of conditions on a road to hone driving skills to a high level.

I learnt this when I started driving on circuit some 9 years ago. I had a pro works drive back in 2004 and I did a number of races in the MR2 Challenge. All my races bar one resulted in a podium finish IIRC plus a lap record at Cadwell Park. The thing is though once you do learn to handle a car properly from track and race experience, on the road having a bit of tail out action, whether it's a bit of a powerslide or lift off oversteer really is very easy compared to handling a car on track because you will be travelling more slowly.

Ie once you know how to balance a car properly you can do it on teh road too. Now I wouldn't generally be doing that kind of thing down the local high street, but on a fast quiet A road or B road it's a non-issue. Just because a car is sliding does not mean it's not under control.

[mr2nut123]

'Hypocrite. You have NO experience anywhere but the road

Can I ask a few simple questions with some simple answers please?

a) Is a road made of tarmac like a track?
b) Does the road have a good variety of corners, widths, and distances?

I rest my case..

[mr2nut123]

[
People change the way they want to be seen as across forums and it's easy to get an image of someone from their posts behind the Internet when in actual fact, in real life i'm a very sensbile guy when it comes to making decisions in my car. I just say what I and most other people think when posting on forums, rather than putting what people want to see

Fair enough, but you have to remember we're all into cars and all drive a lot, some more than others, some with more experience than others. Virtually no one professes to be a driving god,.... except you who has less experience then a large proportion of other people. Do you not realise this makes you sound very foolish,... you obviously do as you said it yourself, you don't want to sound a dick.

Why don't you stun us all and sign up to race the MR2 series and kick ass if your so great? I just cringe when I read your posts. You may be a really nice chap, but nice people can still be deluded and you do sound deluded when it comes to driving and MR2's.

To be fair, I also think it's foolish to say someone is more skilled than someone just because they haven't gone on a track by waving about the 'i've gone on a track' card. On a track, do you not go into corners, balance the throttle and exit as quickly and as smoothly as you can or am I missing some other exciting and more challenging points here?

I have karted a fair few times and this as many will agree, is just a scaled down version of track racing and requires different input than the tubby...mainly because you dont have an engine behind you trying to put you in a ditch if you get it wrong You have other drivers which you have to monitor their driving style and improvise on your racing lines to get around making snap decisions. This combined with a fair few years of experience with many RWD cars and especially the tubby, gives me great overall experience of how sports cars handle and where the limits are.

I have dragged many times also, which some people will blindly say doesn't require good driver input/skill, but to get consistent 60ft times with great clutch control doesn't come easy. I posted my slip a while back with a standard tubby with just an MBC at 15psi as my only mod, running a very respectable 13.6. At the time, some experienced guys from here and the OC who had more power had to take their hats off. Anyway, I realise that dragging doesn't have a patch on cornering ability and overall driver skill, but it still does require a lot of responsive driver input.

Also, i've never come here and said i'm a driving god and more experienced than loads of guys who have tracked. It may have come across that way or my posts been twisted slightly. I realise i'm nowhere near the best driver out there, but for idiots like Matt who have never even driven cars he repeatedly comes on here to boast about (i.e. M3) and claim they're far superior to the tubby by posting manufacturer 0-60 times plastered across the net, p1$$e$ me off. I have driven M3s and plenty of other highly regarded performance cars, prestige and japanese so actually CAN speak my mind about the levels of performance and I can honestly say that the MR2 is not as far behind an M3 as what a lot would make out and with a few little tweaks here and there (rev3+) costing sub £500, can be every bit as, if not faster than one.

Yes I have made some silly posts in the past in rage and said daft stuff, who hasn't? If you were to spend hours making immaculate posts, where would the forum be without daft little arguements?

[johnp]

once you know how to balance a car properly you can do it on teh road too. Now I wouldn't generally be doing that kind of thing down the local high street, but on a fast quiet A road or B road it's a non-issue. Just because a car is sliding does not mean it's not under control.

Can't say I really agree with that although I understand where you are coming from when you say it.
However would you think that any of the professional tutors who teach fast ROAD driving techniques,with of course safety conditions paramount,would agree with the above?....I rather tend to think they would disagree with you.

[Lauren]

Can't say I really agree with that although I understand where you are coming from when you say it.
However would you think that any of the professional tutors who teach fast ROAD driving techniques,with of course safety conditions paramount,would agree with the above?....I rather tend to think they would disagree with you.

The likes of IAM and Rospa would no doubt disagree but I would wholly disagree with them too.

[johnp]

Can't say I really agree with that although I understand where you are coming from when you say it.
However would you think that any of the professional tutors who teach fast ROAD driving techniques,with of course safety conditions paramount,would agree with the above?....I rather tend to think they would disagree with you.

The likes of IAM and Rospa would no doubt disagree but I would wholly disagree with them too.

I didn't ask you about IAM and ROSPA,any enthusiastic driver would disagree with their pronouncements,you evaded the question and you know it...I think we can draw our own conclusions.

[mr2nut123]

Can't say I really agree with that although I understand where you are coming from when you say it.
However would you think that any of the professional tutors who teach fast ROAD driving techniques,with of course safety conditions paramount,would agree with the above?....I rather tend to think they would disagree with you.

The likes of IAM and Rospa would no doubt disagree but I would wholly disagree with them too.

I didn't ask you about IAM and ROSPA,any enthusiastic driver would disagree with their pronouncements,you evaded the question and you know it...I think we can draw our own conclusions.

*Walks off quickly as the 'trackqueens' battle it out with themselves for once*

[johnp]

The likes of IAM and Rospa would no doubt disagree but I would wholly disagree with them too.

I didn't ask you about IAM and ROSPA,any enthusiastic driver would disagree with their pronouncements,you evaded the question and you know it...I think we can draw our own conclusions.

*Walks off quickly as the 'trackqueens' battle it out with themselves for once*

What are you on about???

[mr2nut123]

I didn't ask you about IAM and ROSPA,any enthusiastic driver would disagree with their pronouncements,you evaded the question and you know it...I think we can draw our own conclusions.

*Walks off quickly as the 'trackqueens' battle it out with themselves for once*

What are you on about???

Not sure, ask Kongaroo

[Lauren]

To be fair, I also think it's foolish to say someone is more skilled than someone just because they haven't gone on a track by waving about the 'i've gone on a track' card. On a track, do you not go into corners, balance the throttle and exit as quickly and as smoothly as you can or am I missing some other exciting and more challenging points here?

I guess what i'm saying is that you cannot hone your skills properly in car control without track experience.

[Lauren]

I didn't ask you about IAM and ROSPA,any enthusiastic driver would disagree with their pronouncements,you evaded the question and you know it...I think we can draw our own conclusions.

Okay I will refine my point somewhat. 'Professional' road driving tutors do not teach car control. This is why when people get a car into a slide unintentionally they generally do not know how to get out of it and often crash. So a 'professional' road tutor probably does not have the skills themselves to deal with such a situation so will naturally disaprove. As far as I see it, anyone who teaches a push/pull method of steering should be wholly disregarded.

So if you have the experience of driving on track and you know how to control a car when it is in a slide ie above the maximum slip angle of the tyres, then you are able to control a car when it is in this situation on the road. So if you are well practised then it is relative child's play to kick the rear end out or have a bit of lift off oversteer on the road, just for fun and in relative safety.

[Ekona]

Okay I will refine my point somewhat. 'Professional' road driving tutors do not teach car control. This is why when people get a car into a slide unintentionally they generally do not know how to get out of it and often crash. So a 'professional' road tutor probably does not have the skills themselves to deal with such a situation so will naturally disaprove. As far as I see it, anyone who teaches a push/pull method of steering should be wholly disregarded.

So if you have the experience of driving on track and you know how to control a car when it is in a slide ie above the maximum slip angle of the tyres, then you are able to control a car when it is in this situation on the road. So if you are well practised then it is relative child's play to kick the rear end out or have a bit of lift off oversteer on the road, just for fun and in relative safety.

+millionty

Providing the conditions and situation allow it, and you don't get caught, then that's bang on the money. I've seen Nova boys go flying off into the distance at a billion miles an hour and then seen them almost fall over when they reach a corner, and I've seen Caterhams almost ballet dancing their way around a roundabout at sensible speeds and in complete, graceful control.

I have no doubt that people who drive IAM and ROSPA-stylee have less accidents when driving, but I also think that when something unexpected does catch them that they have a proper moment. No stats, no facts, just my opinion.

[johnp]

I didn't ask you about IAM and ROSPA,any enthusiastic driver would disagree with their pronouncements,you evaded the question and you know it...I think we can draw our own conclusions.

Okay I will refine my point somewhat. 'Professional' road driving tutors do not teach car control. This is why when people get a car into a slide unintentionally they generally do not know how to get out of it and often crash. So a 'professional' road tutor probably does not have the skills themselves to deal with such a situation so will naturally disaprove. As far as I see it, anyone who teaches a push/pull method of steering should be wholly disregarded.

So if you have the experience of driving on track and you know how to control a car when it is in a slide ie above the maximum slip angle of the tyres, then you are able to control a car when it is in this situation on the road. So if you are well practised then it is relative child's play to kick the rear end out or have a bit of lift off oversteer on the road, just for fun and in relative safety.

I note as your penultimate word you say'relative',but I don't want to make too much of this .The problem that I have with your approach is that I think you are just going too far in saying that the particular skill we are talking about,lets call it car control when grip is totally lost,is something to be practised on the road whenever you feel is appropriate.
As each bend arrives you have to make a snap judgement 'shall I go for it here or not?'...sometimes you will make the wrong call,it may not end in disaster but if you have to say to yourself 'that was a bit scary and it could have gone wrong' then I think you have taken an unacceptable risk on a public road.
That is not to say that I can't distinguish between something slightly different that I can give you an example of.
A couple of years ago I had fitted new shock absorbers all round to my MR2 mk1 as well as a set of new non-standard size tyres and I wanted to try out the handling to see if it was to my liking.One thing I did was to find a large diameter roundabout at a time when the traffic was very light and I went round at a constant (IIRC) 35/40 in third gear.It was wet and I found if I accelerated from this speed then the car went into oversteer which was easily corrected in the normal manner.I found I could oversteer, correct and repeat three times on each circuit.
I was satisfied with the feel of the car and did not think I had done any thing unsafe,but now I look back and perhaps think 'but what if...'
Over my driving career I've probably drifted more cars than any one on here ...I'm not boasting I'm simply saying that because I've held a full licence now for 43 years and had so many cars then this is probably the case,but every time I've done it on a public road I've been conscious that an element of risk has been involved.
I will also say that I must have been lucky because I've never had an accident of any sort on the public road,and,obviously,I'm not a slow driver.
Of course I know one of my many problems is I'm getting old but I just can't help thinking that anyone who habitually goes out for a drive on the UK roads of 2009 thinking 'I'll hang the out the back end when the time feels right' is heading eventually for a fall however good they consider their driving ability to be.
Also if a traffic cop catches you hanging the back end out on his camera you may well find yourself charged with dangerous driving and I don't think that saying you were still in total control would work as a defence.

[johnp]

On re-reading what I said above I seem to have omitted dealing with our main point of contention.
I am ONLY talking about professional tutors on 'Performance' driving courses,the comprehensive ones where you will get circuit practise,including how to deal with oversteer,a skid pan session and a drive in a performance car on the public road where you are coached on how to make rapid but safe progress.
The instructor will be someone of exceptional ability with ample race experience.
I have not been on such a course and so I may be wrong but I would wager that part of his tuition would include a phrase such as:
IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO PROVOKE OVERSTEER ON THE PUBLIC ROAD,
ALTHOUGH IF IT OCCURS YOU NOW KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH IT.
Am I wrong in this assumption? ....if so, I apologise

[Lauren]

On re-reading what I said above I seem to have omitted dealing with our main point of contention.
I am ONLY talking about professional tutors on 'Performance' driving courses,the comprehensive ones where you will get circuit practise,including how to deal with oversteer,a skid pan session and a drive in a performance car on the public road where you are coached on how to make rapid but safe progress.
The instructor will be someone of exceptional ability with ample race experience.
I have not been on such a course and so I may be wrong but I would wager that part of his tuition would include a phrase such as:
IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO PROVOKE OVERSTEER ON THE PUBLIC ROAD,
ALTHOUGH IF IT OCCURS YOU NOW KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH IT.
Am I wrong in this assumption? ....if so, I apologise

I think you are now moving the goalposts John. Your original comment was about road driving.

I've met plenty of instructors with very average ability. Those that can do.... those that can't....

Having said that of course there are some good instructors out there, but it's not a given.

In all honesty if I spent my life worrying about what if's I probably wouldn't get out of bed in the morning.

John, even it's not acceptable to provoke oversteer on the public road I shall still do it when I deem I want to. I can make my own decisions in that respect.

I've had a debate with teh police before when they said what I was doing was dangerous driving (I straightlined a roundabout in front of them). I told them to stop talking rubbish and prove it. They couldn't that was it.

[johnp]

On re-reading what I said above I seem to have omitted dealing with our main point of contention.
I am ONLY talking about professional tutors on 'Performance' driving courses,the comprehensive ones where you will get circuit practise,including how to deal with oversteer,a skid pan session and a drive in a performance car on the public road where you are coached on how to make rapid but safe progress.
The instructor will be someone of exceptional ability with ample race experience.
I have not been on such a course and so I may be wrong but I would wager that part of his tuition would include a phrase such as:
IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO PROVOKE OVERSTEER ON THE PUBLIC ROAD,
ALTHOUGH IF IT OCCURS YOU NOW KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH IT.
Am I wrong in this assumption? ....if so, I apologise

I think you are now moving the goalposts John. Your original comment was about road driving.

I've met plenty of instructors with very average ability. Those that can do.... those that can't....

Having said that of course there are some good instructors out there, but it's not a given.

In all honesty if I spent my life worrying about what if's I probably wouldn't get out of bed in the morning.

John, even it's not acceptable to provoke oversteer on the public road I shall still do it when I deem I want to. I can make my own decisions in that respect.

I've had a debate with teh police before when they said what I was doing was dangerous driving (I straightlined a roundabout in front of them). I told them to stop talking rubbish and prove it. They couldn't that was it.

I don't think I've moved the goal posts,I ALWAYS talk about road driving and I was taking it as a given that the driver is advanced enough to have learned the rudiments of skid control.
I'm not talking about straightlining roundabouts either ,I always do this when I am certain no other traffic is around.
So I note you will continue to provoke oversteer as and when and I am sure your skill will be more than adequate to control your car ...but let's hope you can control your luck as well.

[Ekona]

If you can see all exits on a roundabout are completely clear, how is luck if you decide to get the ar$e-end out? No-one would do it on a bit of road where there is any blind spots at all, but if you can see fully around you then I'm not sure I can see where luck plays a part.