Porsche Boxster drivers - bigger knobs than Beemer drivers?

[luthor1]

Furthermore, I've been to a private trackday, and pasted a 996 Porsche by a couple of seconds a lap. He was a good driver too.

Porsches are great cars, but there is a lot of 'porsche' worship too. At least we are on an MR2 site worshipping our MR2's!!!!

[Lauren]

Furthermore, I've been to a private trackday, and pasted a 996 Porsche by a couple of seconds a lap. He was a good driver too.

Porsches are great cars, but there is a lot of 'porsche' worship too. At least we are on an MR2 site worshipping our MR2's!!!!

Andy, it frustrates me that you constantly use lap times of deciding what constitutes a better car. It is much more than this and you know it.

[luthor1]

Yeah, there is... and it's all opinion, and I allow others their opinions which YOU DO NOT.

Laptimes are FACTS which we can look at objectively, everything else comes down to feel and opinion. That's why Alonso has HiTec brakes from Renault suppliers, and Hamilton uses the MacLaren brakes yet they are often similar, using different tools. One mans weapon is another mans obstacle.

If you allow that others have different opinions all we have left is laptimes.

EDIT: To continue the Maclaren analogy, which braking system is "better"? Surely it's the one that allows the car to travel the lap fastests... but wait??? Alonso doesn't like those brakes, and HIS laptime is slower than Hamiltons! What can it be? We have the BEST braking system that is BETTER than the others.. oh right, it's because Alonso PREFERS the different feel of the other braking system, and that system compliments his driving style and requirements better. So which is BETTER?

Better is what people prefer, which is THEIR decision, everything else is laptimes.

[Mike]

You're gonna get bias on a one make owners club forum its inevitable, at least you provide some balance to the bias I spose Lauren

Forgive the cliche but its horses for courses I guess.

Im not ignorant enough to think the Mk2 Turbo is the be all and end all of motoring thats just silly, but it would take a hell of alot of car to part me from my tubby, I'm talking V8 Espirit, 4.5 Cerb etc.

I didn't set out to buy an MR2 Turbo, I actually wanted an Evo III.
But when I walked into the import centre and saw a mid-engined, rwd low mileage, 2.0l Turbo 2 seater sports car sat next to all the turbo'ed saloons my choice was instant.

[Lauren]

You're gonna get bias on a one make owners club forum its inevitable, at least you provide some balance to the bias I spose Lauren

Forgive the cliche but its horses for courses I guess.

Im not ignorant enough to think the Mk2 Turbo is the be all and end all of motoring thats just silly, but it would take a hell of alot of car to part me from my tubby, I'm talking V8 Espirit, 4.5 Cerb etc.

I didn't set out to buy an MR2 Turbo, I actually wanted an Evo III.
But when I walked into the import centre and saw a mid-engined, rwd low mileage, 2.0l Turbo 2 seater sports car sat next to all the turbo'ed saloons my choice was instant.

Very fair comment Mike.

[Kongaroo]

Luthor's last couple of posts makes some good points and I agree with his point that laptimes (along with 0-60, 1/4 mile times, power, weight) are at least a factual way of comparing cars - as opposed to the rather vague comments about basing which is the better car on 'handling' or 'most fun'.

Isn't the lap time how they decide the rankings on the 'handling course' at TOTB?

Seems to me from reading various car group comparisons (in magazines) that outright grip and power to weight ratio have more effect on lap times than how a car handles anyway, so why put a car down just because you don't like the way the car behaves when it breaks traction?

Luthor made another good point about the videos he mentioned. Over the last couple of years as more of these videos have been found by members the put-down arguments for the turbo have changed slightly.

Most of the old threads usually has someone saying something like:

'yes it has less power but it'll run rings around you on a twisty course' (usually talking about a car with Type-R in the name)

Now that the videos showing the cars driven by professional drivers have been found and shown this statement to be false, the putdowns have now changed to somewhat vague comments about how fun the car is to drive.

Yes the turbo has its flaws but it is still a very good performance car - it's unfair to say its only strong point is straight line performance especially when you take into account the lap times it achieved (in stock form too) were literally only a hair off those achieved by the NSX in the video Luthor mentioned earlier. Going by that I think it's fair to say the turbo can corner pertty well too

[Aidy]

The point you're missing RE those videos is that they are races, not lap times. If I can get off the line before you and keep you behind despite you being able to go, on average, 5 mph faster than me....if you can't get past me your lap time is the same as mine.

[tonigmr2]

The point you're missing RE those videos is that they are races, not lap times. If I can get off the line before you and keep you behind despite you being able to go, on average, 5 mph faster than me....if you can't get past me your lap time is the same as mine.

As evidenced with Tiff and Plato each week on fifth gear when they play - they don't 'pass' each other, they let each other have a go in front!

Also, drivers, drivers, drivers. Maybe you value your £3K turbo less than the guy driving the Porsche worth more?

T

[Tiamat]

Or maybe I value it more as I won't be able to afford to replace it.

[Kongaroo]

The point you're missing RE those videos is that they are races, not lap times. If I can get off the line before you and keep you behind despite you being able to go, on average, 5 mph faster than me....if you can't get past me your lap time is the same as mine.

Whilst I agree this is a fair point and certainly possible it doesn't really apply to the video we are talking about in this thread.

Why? Because if you watch the video from start to finish you'll notice the finishing positions of the cars are completely different from their positions during lap one - this shows that overtaking was occuring.

Eg. the targa NSX (Auto) starts in pole position and is at the front of the pack during most of the 1st lap. This car finishes last and is last by quite some way.

By the final lap the manual NSX has made its way to third position from its starting position the back.

There was also quite some distance between the 3rd place NSX and the 2nd place GTR so the NSX was in no way being held up by the car in front.
Also if you look at each car's best lap time they are divided up into 3 different laps rather than all grouped together in the same lap.

And the video of the MR2 vs the Integra Type-R was pretty impressive you have to admit

[tonigmr2]

Or maybe I value it more as I won't be able to afford to replace it.

You do but does he? LOL I mean if I were driving a £60K Porsche on track I'd be a lot more careful than with any MR2 - even rich people might think twice than try a bit of nose to nose with one.
T

[luthor1]

Ok, so let's sum this up...

The MR2 will be faster on a track than the 'better' porsche, because...

1) The porsche driver won't be as good
2) He is gooning about
3) He doesn't want to drive 'dangerously'
4) Laptiming isn't allowed
5) He doesn't want to drive too quickly in case he crashes his beloved porsche

I mean, get a grip people, this is the most ridiculous conversation ever!!!

Perhaps on the day the porsche was just slower? I mean, just imagine the headlines "£3000 car with £2000 worth of crappy bolt on suspension bits, a boost controller and some half-rubbish tyres laps track faster than porsche 911"

How could you live with yourselves if that just turns out to be the case?

You're allowed to like the porsche better, but don't tell us that it laps slower because he doesn't want to crash it! That's ludicrous.

[Aidy]

<post edited by Aidy as apparently someone on IMOC-UK thought it was out of order>

[luthor1]

I'm not arguing it's the fastest, I'm arguing that firstly it's by no means the slowest, and secondly trying to establish a sensible baseline as to measure what 'better' really means.

It's actually an interesting discussion. We have investigated laptime, we have watched it against established machinery where it fairs extremely well.

I am awaiting an objective critique as to why it's slated so heavily when the numbers add up to it being a perfectly competent car that punches WELL outside it's weight whenever it's properly tested.

NA version ffs only a fraction of a second off the stupendous integra type-R... turbo version nailing Carerra 4 round a track, chasing NSX manual and trouncing NSX auto.. I simply am asking the question as to what makes it a bad car?

[Aidy]

I'm not arguing it's the fastest

You think it's faster than an evo (snigger). So print the list of cars that are faster than an evo around Top Gear's test track and tell us all which of those you think are slower than an MR2. A car so overlooked Top Gear haven't bothered testing it despite the fact that it is faster than an evo.

Once you've done that I'll print a list of modded evos that were faster than the Top Gear time (yes, we booked a day on their track and timed ourselves, the times were better than Top Gear's).

Or you could just admit the MR2 is the fastest car you could afford and just STFU?

[luthor1]

Yes, I think it's faster than "an" evo. Not an FQ-400!!??

I think the only car that's been round the test track that's not a production car is the MacF1 isn't it? So the MR2 hasn't been round there?

Besides, I am fully aware that you have to do certain things to the MR2 in order to sort out initial problems with it, this is why people think it's so awful. But these problems are easily overcome and I've written them time after time, but the are ignored and swept aside. REMOVE THE STEERING RUBBER DISC. INSTALL A FRONT STRUT BRACE. FIT THE PROPER SPEED DELIMITER TO RPEVENT OVERASSISTED ELECTRIC POWER STEERING.

Not one person has "EVER" acknowledged the words I've written above by saying "hmmm a rubber disc in the steering column, maybe that WOULD make the steering vague?"

Why is this?

they haven't said "no I don't think a piece of rubber would affect the steering vagueness and the car handles like junk"

Ok here is the beginning of the list of cars *MY* MR2 Turbo would take round a track (excluding the nurburgring).

Civic Type-R, Integra type-R, NSX Auto, all 911's apart from Turbo's and RS's up to MY1997, all Porsche Boxster variants, Lotus Elise up to 160bhp, Lotus Esprit up to and including S4 (but not S4S) BMW M3 up to and including the 1998 shape one, EVO's up to 320bhp, Scooby's up to 320bhp, Ferrari's up to and including the 348gtb, ferrari testerossa, lambo countach, all SEAT's, all front drive hot hatches ever actually, Older shape Jag XKR, New Aston Martin Vantage, Chimera 4l maybe the 4.5, the cerbera 4.0, not the 4.2 or 4.5, all 2WD skylines, Maserati 3200GT (raced one at Folembray), Audi RS2

that'll do for now...

[Aidy]

Yes, I think it's faster than "an" evo. Not an FQ-400!!??

I think the only car that's been round the test track that's not a production car is the MacF1 isn't it? So the MR2 hasn't been round there?

Besides, I am fully aware that you have to do certain things to the MR2 in order to sort out initial problems with it, this is why people think it's so awful. But these problems are easily overcome and I've written them time after time, but the are ignored and swept aside. REMOVE THE STEERING RUBBER DISC. INSTALL A FRONT STRUT BRACE. FIT THE PROPER SPEED DELIMITER TO RPEVENT OVERASSISTED ELECTRIC POWER STEERING.

Not one person has "EVER" acknowledged the words I've written above by saying "hmmm a rubber disc in the steering column, maybe that WOULD make the steering vague?"

Why is this?

they haven't said "no I don't think a piece of rubber would affect the steering vagueness and the car handles like junk"

Ok here is the beginning of the list of cars *MY* MR2 Turbo would take round a track (excluding the nurburgring).

Civic Type-R, Integra type-R, NSX Auto, all 911's apart from Turbo's and RS's up to MY1997, all Porsche Boxster variants, Lotus Elise up to 160bhp, Lotus Esprit up to and including S4 (but not S4S) BMW M3 up to and including the 1998 shape one, EVO's up to 320bhp, Scooby's up to 320bhp, Ferrari's up to and including the 348gtb, ferrari testerossa, lambo countach, all SEAT's, all front drive hot hatches ever actually, Older shape Jag XKR, New Aston Martin Vantage, Chimera 4l maybe the 4.5, the cerbera 4.0, not the 4.2 or 4.5, all 2WD skylines, Maserati 3200GT (raced one at Folembray), Audi RS2

that'll do for now...

The only thing the above post shows is that you think power is all "on track". To tackle your individual points would just be a waste of my time.

RE the mods you mentioned, can't say I've heard too many people say the MR2's steering is vague, maybe now they're getting on in years some component parts are slackening up. And as for a front strut brace...it doesn't have magical powers you know (I had the TRD ones on mine).

[luthor1]

You asked me a question, I answer it, now you are saying for you to answer the answer to your question would be a waste of time? Why did you ask the question, if in answering the answer to your question would be to waste your own time?

Very odd!

[Aidy]

You asked me a question, I answer it, now you are saying for you to answer the answer to your question would be a waste of time? Why did you ask the question, if in answering the answer to your question would be to waste your own time?

Very odd!

You answered it in a way that showed you know little about how cars perform on track. I asked you that question pretty much assuming you'd answer exactly how you did. Not odd at all, quite clever actually

[Jaspa]

Come on then Luthor, Aidy. Lets see it properly:

http://www.petrolheads.co.uk/gassing/to ... 324931&i=0

Plans Motorsport, the race and sports car specialist, has teamed up with PH to offer the “Pistonheads Challenge”.

Plans Motorsport runs driver experience sessions and driver training at its base at Dunsfold Park, near Guildford in Surrey. They use the very same 1.9 mile track made famous by BBC TV's Top Gear.