injector sizes

[Mikejc]

Only just read the info you posted regarding the injectors Dino. Thanks for that buddy I'm learning more every day on this site

Mikejc

[TBDevelopments]

no i'm not saying don't buy them i'm just saying that they aren't ment to do the job there rx-7 injectors made to fit. where you can get made to measure products for the 3sgte from a variety of places.

And paul i see this is yet another attempt to take a cheap shot at me............ nice one.

one day you'll stop complaining and putting down other companys and look at your so called "p&l performance" and see how many complaints you recieved from the mr2oc about you dealings.

If a company has brought out a good product then i respect that, i don't put people down just for the sake of it unlike others. I have good relations with rogue and fensport.

Tim
xxxx

[paul_h]

no i'm not saying don't buy them i'm just saying that they aren't ment to do the job there rx-7 injectors made to fit. where you can get made to measure products for the 3sgte from a variety of places.

And paul i see this is yet another attempt to take a cheap shot at me............ nice one.

one day you'll stop complaining and putting down other companys and look at your so called "p&l performance" and see how many complaints you recieved from the mr2oc about you dealings.

If a company has brought out a good product then i respect that, i don't put people down just for the sake of it unlike others. I have good relations with rogue and fensport.

Tim
xxxx

dont think I had any shots at you this time, I am not into playing silly games as i'm getting on a bit these days I think you must have a bit of a chip on your shoulder mate nothing was directly aimed at you.

I don't own a comapny never have, yes I had a website called that but it never claimed to be a company. My brother Lee made a few fuel cuts and sold a few grainger valves on the mr2oc shop a while back but havent done it for ages.

paul

[paul_h]

and see how many complaints you recieved from the mr2oc about you dealings.

Tim
xxxx

Not my dealings mate, make sure your aiming shots in the right direction.

if you have a problem with lee sort it out with him off list as it wont do your reputation any good to have a public salgging match

think about it

paul

[paul_h]

Anyway its new years eve,

Everyone have a good one even you tim, time for new starts and all that




paul

[TBDevelopments]

why does your "www" go to p&l performance then.................

All i was doing was giving my opinion on these. I know wolfkatz produce some good products. I was talking to him about stocking them. ok i was a but hasty with the word "bodge" as they are good quality.

the wolkatz injectors work out at around £340 + shiping so lets say £360 then duty. I was selling the 800cc sard injectors for £399 which can be with you next day delivery. this price includes tax and postage. My point was if you can get injectors which are made to do the job for the same price as injectors "adapted" to do the job for the same price why not go with the ones made for the aplication you using.


Tim
xxxx

[TBDevelopments]

Yeah same to you paul. All i've ever wanted to do is run this business and keep everyone happy. I'm not in this to make enermies

Also sorry if i offended anyone, i'm a little pi$$ed off because i've just had a car crash because some shitbag lossened my rear wheel nuts. the locking nut held until 40mph then the rear wheel over took me.............

Tim
xxxx

[paul_h]

why does your "www" go to p&l performance then.................
Tim
xxxx

Erm cos its my website?

not sure what your getting at?

[TBDevelopments]

never mind, lets forget about it

Tim
xxxx

[KiwiMR2]

I get the impression the OEM fuel pump is getting a bit of a rough ride here, AFAIA the stock fuel pump is good for over 395rwhp

This makes an interesting read:

http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31686

There are a few "debatable " assumptions used but what can ya do.

Cheers
KiwiMR2

[MR2Mania]

I get the impression the OEM fuel pump is getting a bit of a rough ride here, AFAIA the stock fuel pump is good for over 395rwhp

This makes an interesting read:

http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31686

There are a few "debatable " assumptions used but what can ya do.

Cheers
KiwiMR2

No sh!t about making assumptions! For a start there's this:
"Also, headlosses caused by the fuel filter, fuel lines and the injectors themselves have not been factored in, so you can expect real fuel delivery to the intake ports to be a bit less than this"

But the real fault in their theory is that they've shown that the fuel pump can supposedly flow for that kinda power at ONLY 35PSI FUEL PRESSURE!!! That's what the fuel pressure should be set at STATICALLY, ie OFF BOOST. As boost increases, the fuel pressure goes up accordingly (see my earlier post, about how fuel flow for ANY pump drops as the pressure increases).

So, unless you can get 400bhp from a normally aspirated 2 litre, that article proves NOTHING!

I've come to my conclusions about the fuel pump based on the many MR2s that I've seen tuned on a dyno at a well known tuning place. If we compare Rev1/2 MR2 turbos to ST185 Celicas, which essentially have the same injectors, engine, turbo, etc. One of the only differences is the fuel pump! The ST185s seems to be able to get about 280FWHP without needing to do anything more to the fuel system, yet ALL Rev1/2 MR2s that I've seen on that same dyno could not go more than 260FWHP. And I've always suspected the pump as being the problem. And the Rev3 shares the same pump, just has bigger injectors. However, I've never done a direct replacement and back to back comparison to prove this. If I did, then maybe people would believe me.

[nutter]

If you look at the americans. One of their first mods to the fueling system is a decent fuel pump (normally walbro). At the moment they're a bit ahead of us with mr2 tuning (we're catching up though ).

[Mikejc]

indeed you are Dean

Mikejc

[MR2Mania]

If you look at the americans. One of their first mods to the fueling system is a decent fuel pump (normally walbro). At the moment they're a bit ahead of us with mr2 tuning (we're catching up though ).

It depends. When it came to tuning for rallying, etc, the Europeans (and especially Brits, as TTE consisted mostly of Brits!) were WAY ahead, but you're right, for outright power and drag racing, the Yanks are still leading the way, although there's some nice spec motors that have been/are being built over here that will narrow the gap - AT LAST!

[KiwiMR2]

If you look at the americans. One of their first mods to the fueling system is a decent fuel pump (normally walbro). At the moment they're a bit ahead of us with mr2 tuning (we're catching up though ).

AFAIA that was all started from in-correct information, now everybody does a search, sees everyone else doing it and follows suit

No sh!t about making assumptions!

One of my mates looked into quite seriosuly and came to the following conclusions (I'll just post what he came up with....rather than re-type it all)

The flow data is good (apart from the BS units) but the assumptions used there are flawed.

For a start you don't rate a pump @85%, it's a constant duty item and will run at that flow rate regardless, however you should put a safety factor of 5% on it.

The BSFC of .55 is too high if the real life data I have is anything to go by it's more like .5 (though I don't run as rich as they seem to think is necessary). Also 20% drive train loss is too much it's more like 10%.

And finally my pet peeve, WTF sort of measurement is lbs/hr when you're talking about flow, lbs/hr at what specific gravity, if I run F1 fuel that has a specific gravity of .75 as opposed to 98 with a SG of .7 does my flow rate change, no it doesn't.

BTW you need to take into account the boost in determining the flow rate as the FPR raises pressure with boost so at 15PSI the rate according to that table is 261lb/hr which according to my calculations is good for around 450whp not the 340 shown on that table. There's at least one member on this board that has run over 400HP with the stock pump so that should give you some idea of the validity of the HP calculations used.

Looks like the stock pump would make a good lift pump for a swirl pot for higher HP, rather than the hassle of fitting a Supra pump, but then again very few people need more HP than the stock setup can provide.

Someone mentioned (not on here) that lbs/hr is a industry standard and all the pumps we buy are rated by this standard BUT

Again I ask lb/hr of what (and at what temperature), water fair enough, but fuel has such a widely varying SG that it makes no sense to rate pumps or injectors in that archaic measurement. What if I wanted to run methanol, or the Gov't decides that we should run 10% ethanol in our fuel, or my fuel is 10°C hotter, how accurate would that rating be then? All the pumps I buy are rated in Litres/Hr, makes it much easier to size for the injectors which are rated in cc/min.

bsfc of .55 is also a industry accepted figure

What industry for what engine, we're talking about a specific engine here with a known BSFC of approx .5 not some fancy industry standard. What is trying to be worked out is the max HP for this pump on this engine so it makes no sense to use figures that don't apply to it. Then again as I noted they do choose to run their engines richer than I would so perhaps the .55 value could be considered valid in that case. Though why you'd want to run an engine at .78 Lambda is beyond me

The thing that really p1$$e$ me off about the data displayed there is that IMO the person doing the calculations chose figures to justify his position that the stock pump needs to be replaced at 300HP, and the poor sods believe him, it's just another example of the BS prevalent on the US dominated import sites as I've said on numerous occasions.

To be honest it's all a bit tecnical to me but some of you who are more into it and understand it might be able to draw some more conclusions from it all

At the end of the days it's all info for us MR2 guys

Cheers
KiwiMR2

[MR2Mania]

KiwiMR2, he seems to have backed up all of my points, apart from saying they got their calcs wrong and at 15psi you could get 450RWHP. Aside from it being nigh on impossible to get 450RWHP at 15psi, I don't think it has the flow rate for that kinda power.

BTW, the BSFC used by most good European tuners is about .48

[BenF]

Andy i was doing these for £399 set of 4 delivered. Drop in 800cc sard injectors.

If anyone is interested drop me aline at [email protected]

I will also do price matching if any company in the uk can beat that price all in to your door. You will also get the added bonus of buying from an established uk mr2 specalist which means full after sales service if anything happens or you need help.

Tim
xxxx

Tim,

Can you contact the Site admins please - we're looking to get Affiliates formally signed up on the new site - if you're a MR2 Specalist we'd be particularly interested to hear from you.

FWIW - in future 'Ads' will be permitted from Traders in the Affiliates forum only - you'd be able to reply to a thread like this with a link to your areas in the affliates forum.

Cheers,

Ben.

[BenF]

I get the impression the OEM fuel pump is getting a bit of a rough ride here, AFAIA the stock fuel pump is good for over 395rwhp

This makes an interesting read:

http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31686

There are a few "debatable " assumptions used but what can ya do.

Cheers
KiwiMR2

No sh!t about making assumptions! For a start there's this:
"Also, headlosses caused by the fuel filter, fuel lines and the injectors themselves have not been factored in, so you can expect real fuel delivery to the intake ports to be a bit less than this"

But the real fault in their theory is that they've shown that the fuel pump can supposedly flow for that kinda power at ONLY 35PSI FUEL PRESSURE!!! That's what the fuel pressure should be set at STATICALLY, ie OFF BOOST. As boost increases, the fuel pressure goes up accordingly (see my earlier post, about how fuel flow for ANY pump drops as the pressure increases).

So, unless you can get 400bhp from a normally aspirated 2 litre, that article proves NOTHING!

I've come to my conclusions about the fuel pump based on the many MR2s that I've seen tuned on a dyno at a well known tuning place. If we compare Rev1/2 MR2 turbos to ST185 Celicas, which essentially have the same injectors, engine, turbo, etc. One of the only differences is the fuel pump! The ST185s seems to be able to get about 280FWHP without needing to do anything more to the fuel system, yet ALL Rev1/2 MR2s that I've seen on that same dyno could not go more than 260FWHP. And I've always suspected the pump as being the problem. And the Rev3 shares the same pump, just has bigger injectors. However, I've never done a direct replacement and back to back comparison to prove this. If I did, then maybe people would believe me.

Dino, I've got some video footage of mine on a RR at T&M in Colchester showing fuel rail and boost pressure gauges side by side as the car did a power run.

There may be some differences between dynos, but mine was putting down ~250 RWHP and just over 300FWHP, with boost creeping to 18-19psi.

I'll see if I can dig out the footage of the gauges to see if we can answer this question ...

[MR2Mania]

Dino, I've got some video footage of mine on a RR at T&M in Colchester showing fuel rail and boost pressure gauges side by side as the car did a power run.

There may be some differences between dynos, but mine was putting down ~250 RWHP and just over 300FWHP, with boost creeping to 18-19psi.

I'll see if I can dig out the footage of the gauges to see if we can answer this question ...

Ben, that would be nice to see if there's any drop off in fuel pressure.

I'm pretty sure that I'm getting it on my engine at the moment, so tomorrow I'm going to go on the hunt for a threaded pressure sensor that I can drop into the fuel rail and rig up to the MoTeC for logging (I've got a TTE Group A fuel rail, and the clever g!ts have included a port for fuel rail pressure to be measured - just need to work out the thread and see what I can get).

I *was* going to just go ahead and fit my new fuel pump and swirl pot, but if I can do something to sort this debate out, once and for, I'll give it a go.

[nutter]

Even though it would be good to prove this. It often makes me wonder why people would take the risk. If you are aiming for 350-400bhp then you've probably spent a fare bit of time and money on your engine. Why skimp on a £80 fuel pump?? Maybe it's just me that thinks that way??