MX5 vs MR2 Turbo and a few other things like Skyline GTR

[Lauren]

http://www.triumphspitfire.com/healtoe.html

IMHO that's an awful lot for the brain to be thinking about, calculating and doing while driving at speeds. Considering you should also be looking at the road and thinking about what other drivers are doing.

It's not something I have ever considered a need to do to get a decent speed on a public road. Which leads me to think that the only reason for it is to carry very high speed. Which is illegal and apparently anything not legal is not tollerated on IMOC?

It might be a lot for the brain to think about, but I can literally do it without thinking thesedays. I can still look at the road and concentrare etc, it really is not a problem. When you first learn to drive a car it seems like there is a lot to think about, but once you've been driving for a time it's second nature. Same thing here. So I can do everything you need to do plus heel and toe and lately a bit of left foot braking as well.

You can do it at high speed, you can also do it at lower speeds. I tend to do it to help smooth driving on an everyday basis. If i'm on a quiet A road in the middle of nowhere then yes I might be going pretty quickly, but by using heel and toeing it helps to keep the car balanced and effectively keep it safe.

Double declutching is pointless, just like shuffling the wheel, it has no place in todays cars.

[Lauren]

Me too. Don't know why they call it heal and toe as I bet most use the sides of their feet as it's easier.

It's called 'heel and toe'...

Actually on cars where the pedals are too far apart or there is a bigger difference in height between brake pedal and accelerator you do literally 'heel and toe'. I prefer to generally just twist my foot anti-clockwise a bit and do it that way, mostly using the side of my foot and maybe a little heel. The danger of just using the side of your foot is that there is a higher potential for messing it up.

[steve b]

The danger of just using the side of your foot is that there is a higher potential for messing it up.

I think that the problem with the MX5, foot isn't wide enought to do both pedals, so sort of push the edge of the pedal and slip. MR2 is easier as in work commuting shoes, thin leather stiff sole both pedals are easily reached and felt.

[mr2nut123]

Me too. Don't know why they call it heal and toe as I bet most use the sides of their feet as it's easier.

It's called 'heel and toe'...

Actually on cars where the pedals are too far apart or there is a bigger difference in height between brake pedal and accelerator you do literally 'heel and toe'. I prefer to generally just twist my foot anti-clockwise a bit and do it that way, mostly using the side of my foot and maybe a little heel. The danger of just using the side of your foot is that there is a higher potential for messing it up.

lol, thats a damn stupid typo

[mr2nut123]

I prefer to generally just twist my foot anti-clockwise a bit and do it that way, mostly using the side of my foot and maybe a little heel. The danger of just using the side of your foot is that there is a higher potential for messing it up.

That's what I do too. it's not litterally the side of my foot, but it's definatlely not a clean heel doing it.

[matt_mr2t]

Was I reading it wrong on that link where it says to use your toes on the clutch and heal on the accelerator?

What about the brake pedal?

I dont think there's anyway I could actually pull that off in my car

[Bender Unit]

The 5 goes ok doesn't it, road tyres as well, no trackday specials sticking it to the road. I was quite happy keeping with the R26R

Was it a black one? Driven by a motoring journalist? There was one at Llandow the other week – chased him as hard a possible but he had the legs on me (not surprising I have 120bhp!) and it had 200+

IMHO that's an awful lot for the brain to be thinking about, calculating and doing while driving at speeds. Considering you should also be looking at the road and thinking about what other drivers are doing.

It's not something I have ever considered a need to do to get a decent speed on a public road. Which leads me to think that the only reason for it is to carry very high speed. Which is illegal and apparently anything not legal is not tollerated on IMOC?

Oh dear Matt.

FYI you wont find a professional race driver that doesn’t heel and toe – so if they do it on track and at high speed why would it be dangerous on the road? It’s not difficult to do; it’s just something you learn, just like you learn to drive a car. Once you have mastered it, it’s very natural – ignore websites that try and explain how to do it they just complicate the process.

I have heel and toed for years on track and on the road, I can even do it in a diesel / 8v – once you try it you become naturally aware of how much of a poke you need to give the gas to match the rpm of the downshift. Its not just for fast driving, it allows you to change smoothly between gears without any drive train snatch and keeps the car balanced in the bends.

However you really don’t need to use it on the road. On track though it makes a massive difference, you can brake so much later, carry more speed through the bend and always be in the right gear as you exit and also means you don’t run the risk of unbalancing the car by shifting weight during the down changes etc.

[matt_mr2t]

Can you explain it then as that link I looked at confused the xxxx out of me quite frankly.

I dunno about any one else but I had no learning period with a car. I hardly ever stalled it. I just got in on my first lesson (which was the first time I'd driven a car) and drove it. I didnt need to think about anything. To be fair, the instructor was very impressed and said something to the effect that it often takes students longer to pick it up.

Steering was my big issue as I couldnt push/pull quick enough. No problem when you've passed though

The reason I suggested that it may be dangerous doing this whole heel toe thing is because, as I remember it, Lauren was said to be practicing or learning it. I dont think the public road is the best place to learn driving tricks personally.

[Bender Unit]

Heel and toeing is simple, you brake as you normally would with your toes, and as your braking, your heel / side of your foot rolls over onto the throttle, at the same time you dip the clutch the change down a gear you blip the throttle and re-engage the gear. What you have done is significantly condense the act of braking and changing gear into 1 motion.

It’s not difficult and its not dangerous to use on the road. Have a try your self when you come up to junctions / bends, just make sure you do so on a quite road in case you balls it up.

[matt_mr2t]

I read it wrong then

I thought it mean use the clutch (left) foot to blip the throttle at the same time, which sounded like you'd need size 30 feet and no brake pedal

[Lauren]

Can you explain it then as that link I looked at confused the xxxx out of me quite frankly.

I dunno about any one else but I had no learning period with a car. I hardly ever stalled it. I just got in on my first lesson (which was the first time I'd driven a car) and drove it. I didnt need to think about anything. To be fair, the instructor was very impressed and said something to the effect that it often takes students longer to pick it up.

Steering was my big issue as I couldnt push/pull quick enough. No problem when you've passed though

The reason I suggested that it may be dangerous doing this whole heel toe thing is because, as I remember it, Lauren was said to be practicing or learning it. I dont think the public road is the best place to learn driving tricks personally.

Well you learn to drive on the road don't you, so what's the difference with this compared to any other driving technique? It's not a trick, it's a technique.

To learn how to heel and toe read an article I wrote back in 2003 and have had published in the odd mag:

http://www.mr2.net/trackdayqueen/heelandtoe.htm

[matt_mr2t]

Funny you should say that about learning to drive on the road. Alot of instructrors dont take first timers on the road, they take them round car parks and what not.

[Lauren]

Funny you should say that about learning to drive on the road. Alot of instructrors dont take first timers on the road, they take them round car parks and what not.

Matt, you seem not to get the point i'm making. Did you do all your driving lessons in a car park?

[matt_mr2t]

No. I didnt do any in a carpark but I was told had I not "got it" in my first lesson I would have started there.

What you dont get is that learner cars are marked up, every one on the road should know to stay away AND they are generally crawling along.

You're talking about intense driving, hard and fast where the liklihood of a crash is substantially higher than a learner car.

I've never known a learner to crash. I've known lots of speeders to crash.

[Ben]

You don't have to drive hard or fast to practice heel-and-toeing. It's a lot easier to start when you're driving slowly, approaching junctions etc

[Lauren]

No. I didnt do any in a carpark but I was told had I not "got it" in my first lesson I would have started there.

What you dont get is that learner cars are marked up, every one on the road should know to stay away AND they are generally crawling along.

You're talking about intense driving, hard and fast where the liklihood of a crash is substantially higher than a learner car.

I've never known a learner to crash. I've known lots of speeders to crash.

Well I think a bit of common sense when learning techniques is all you need really. Practicing these techniques does not necessarily mean you are speeding. So I don't think that you are necessarily increasing the likelihood of a crash if you are learning how to heel and toe for example.

I mean lets face it, you haven't got a clue how to drive when you have passed your test and arguably it's when you pass your test that you really learn to drive.

[MrLuke]

No. I didnt do any in a carpark but I was told had I not "got it" in my first lesson I would have started there.

What you dont get is that learner cars are marked up, every one on the road should know to stay away AND they are generally crawling along.

You're talking about intense driving, hard and fast where the liklihood of a crash is substantially higher than a learner car.

I've never known a learner to crash. I've known lots of speeders to crash.

Sorry what

What is the point you are trying to make here, that learning better car control is a bad thing? Or that you cant possibly touch the brake pedal at below 80?

Lets say you stuff up your attempt to heel toe, the absolute worst that is going to happen is that you are going to stall, the next worse is that youll jerk forward a bit. I dont see this as being life threatening to anybody.

I did like your assumption that it was illegal tho

[mr2nut123]

You're talking about intense driving, hard and fast where the liklihood of a crash is substantially higher than a learner car.

[stiggy]

No. I didnt do any in a carpark but I was told had I not "got it" in my first lesson I would have started there.

What you dont get is that learner cars are marked up, every one on the road should know to stay away AND they are generally crawling along.

You're talking about intense driving, hard and fast where the liklihood of a crash is substantially higher than a learner car.

I've never known a learner to crash. I've known lots of speeders to crash.

What on earth has heel toeing got to do with driving above the speed limit?

Do you even understand what it is your practising here? Your replys say otherwise.

Personally, I found heel toeing difficult to learn but it's a skill well worth mastering. Best advice is to ignore these rediculous websites, all it is really is a QUICK blip on the throttle before you bring up the clutch. Find the part of the foot that's naturally closest to the throttle when your braking and just extend that bit a little further to give the accelerator a quick tap! There are three elements that need mastering, one is giving the throttle the correct amount of 'blip', the second is bringing the clutch up at the exact right moment and the third is ensuring it doesn't effect the pressure you're putting on the brake pedal at all.

[mr2nut123]

No. I didnt do any in a carpark but I was told had I not "got it" in my first lesson I would have started there.

What you dont get is that learner cars are marked up, every one on the road should know to stay away AND they are generally crawling along.

You're talking about intense driving, hard and fast where the liklihood of a crash is substantially higher than a learner car.

I've never known a learner to crash. I've known lots of speeders to crash.

What on earth has heel toeing got to do with driving above the speed limit?

Do you even understand what it is your practising here? Your replys say otherwise.

lmao. That's exactly why I take this comments with a pinch of salt. He comes here and takes the rip out of all the tubby owners (and owns one himself) for having 'inferior' cars to the likes of Boxsters and other similar small budget but prestige badged cars and doesn't even understand the basic fundamentals of driving a RWD mid-engined car, and clearly just assumes. Lack of driving technique and confidence is what makes these cars unpredictable..

Quite entertaining at times though