[Mk3] [Turbo] Think I've broken my engine *video inside* 1ZZ Turbo

[Captain Vimes]

Kept it as a turbo or back to NA?

turbo

Still haven't actually driven it yet - can't wait to get insurance sorted now.

[leeandjude]

christ! no wonder it was knocking!
good luck with the new one

[BenF]

Those big ends have got a scary amount of free play - did you try taking the head off to check the internals and condition of the cylinder bores?

Not all Roadster Turbos end up with problems like that.

Hope a new engine sorts it for you.

[Captain Vimes]

Those big ends have got a scary amount of free play - did you try taking the head off to check the internals and condition of the cylinder bores?

Nope, but I strongly suspect that it was the old oval bore syndrome as it drunk plenty of oil before this happened - it couldn't be pre-cats as it doesn't have any (turbo manifold replaces the standard manifold).

Personaly, given the fact that Toyota changed the piston design on the facelift model and pre-cats remained, I'd guess that the pre-cat thing is myth and it's the poor piston design that causes the issue (but I'm no engineer).

Seeing the state of this engine, I'd never buy an early roadster - I'm disappointed that Mr T didn't spot the issue earlier and offer to replace damaged engines regardless of age... (Sorry all pre-facelift owners, I know many have run to high mileages but I wouldn't take the chance).

Not all Roadster Turbos end up with problems like that.

Hope a new engine sorts it for you.

I've got a NEW engine with new piston design so it should be fine now.

I plan on getting the map checked ASAP to ensure that it wasn't the map that killed it AND I'll add an intercooler too to be safe - and so I can wind the boost up... 190bhp isn't really trying

[BenF]

New engine - Nice one. You've got the PE turbo like on mine?

IMO getting the map right and minimising det is key. Mine has 235bhp with a Unichip + 5th injector, chargecooler and 10psi of boost.

I did find that the standard ECU will keep trying to get the fuel:air mix back to ideal - whereas with the turbo you really need it rich to keep the temperatures down. That results in a battle between the ECU and the Unichip as the ECU can't ever take enough fuel out on boost.

Depending on what you're looking to achieve, I'd be tempted to go for a full stand alone ECU.

[Ekona]

Personaly, given the fact that Toyota changed the piston design on the facelift model and pre-cats remained, I'd guess that the pre-cat thing is myth and it's the poor piston design that causes the issue (but I'm no engineer).

It doesn't help, but I've seen pre-cat failure on a post-03 car so it's definitely not just the rings. Luckily it was my own car (53 plate), and I had the manifold changed under warranty within a week. That said, I then ripped the pre-cats out of the new manifold just 3 days later and the pre-cats were already cracked, so it's a very safe bet that Toyota use the cheapest, crappiest ceramic pre-cat material you can find.

It's probably why TTE used a metal matrix pre-cat on the turbo downpipe too. Knowledge after the event and all that.

[Captain Vimes]

New engine - Nice one. You've got the PE turbo like on mine?

IMO getting the map right and minimising det is key. Mine has 235bhp with a Unichip + 5th injector, chargecooler and 10psi of boost.

I did find that the standard ECU will keep trying to get the fuel:air mix back to ideal - whereas with the turbo you really need it rich to keep the temperatures down. That results in a battle between the ECU and the Unichip as the ECU can't ever take enough fuel out on boost.

Depending on what you're looking to achieve, I'd be tempted to go for a full stand alone ECU.

Yes, mine's running a PE turbo too, but with a Greddy Emanage. It was originally mapped by THOR so it should be safe. I just want to get it checked with the new engine to make sure it's still OK.

I do worry about the 'self learning' standard ECU fighting with the piggy back. But I guess a good tuner would know about and deal with this?
How do you find the unichip? Is it still sufficient at 230bhp? Did you get the map sorted somewhere local (in Essex)?

How have you managed to route the charge cooler?

My goals are not to take it too far. My only real concern is the intake temps with no intercooler. If I add an intercooler for 'safety' then I'll probably increase the boost slightly too - however, I then start to worry whether other components may need upgrading (exhaust, clutch,..) and those extra horses could end up costing a fair bit.

I'd be interested in your thoughts - has it been worth the extra expense and time to get another 45bhp over the standard kit?

A few pictures of the install here:-
http://s179.photobucket.com/albums/w285 ... mk3%20mr2/

[Captain Vimes]

Just to add that I finally got to drive the car today and it's fantastic!

It has ditchfinder rear tyres on it and with the turbo spooling - even only at 3k revs - the back end starts coming round in a nice controllable drift .

At the moment I can't see the need for more power and the chassis feels playful and communicative - a step forward over the MK1 and I'm looking forward to being able to drive it properly when the engine has bedded in.

[BenF]

New engine - Nice one. You've got the PE turbo like on mine?

IMO getting the map right and minimising det is key. Mine has 235bhp with a Unichip + 5th injector, chargecooler and 10psi of boost.

I did find that the standard ECU will keep trying to get the fuel:air mix back to ideal - whereas with the turbo you really need it rich to keep the temperatures down. That results in a battle between the ECU and the Unichip as the ECU can't ever take enough fuel out on boost.

Depending on what you're looking to achieve, I'd be tempted to go for a full stand alone ECU.

Yes, mine's running a PE turbo too, but with a Greddy Emanage. It was originally mapped by THOR so it should be safe. I just want to get it checked with the new engine to make sure it's still OK.

Beware the eManage doesn't completely replace the standard ECU - it will apply a correction map which means you'll have the same issue I had with the standard ECU trying to lean out the fuel:air mix when you're on boost. If you end up with the Check Engine Light on and it complaining it can't lean the fuel mix out enough then you're OK

I do worry about the 'self learning' standard ECU fighting with the piggy back. But I guess a good tuner would know about and deal with this?
How do you find the unichip? Is it still sufficient at 230bhp? Did you get the map sorted somewhere local (in Essex)?

The problem is that with a NA ECU they're designed to run closed loop monitoring and fine tuning the fuel mix as much as possible. A turbo ECU will do this under light the moderate load, but knows to basically dump fuel into the engine on full boost to keep temperatures down, and let the fuel/air mix go rich.

Really, if money were no object I'd go for a stand-alone ECU, but they also have their drawbacks as you need to map for cold starts as well as engine up to temperature, and also handle idle speed control. The standard ECU does this all very well.

How have you managed to route the charge cooler?

I've got a small PWR chargcooler, between the engine block and battery. Hose is run under the car to a reservoir under the left front headlap, with a Fiat Rad in the front with pump to pump it all back up to the chargecooler again.

My goals are not to take it too far. My only real concern is the intake temps with no intercooler. If I add an intercooler for 'safety' then I'll probably increase the boost slightly too - however, I then start to worry whether other components may need upgrading (exhaust, clutch,..) and those extra horses could end up costing a fair bit.

I'd be interested in your thoughts - has it been worth the extra expense and time to get another 45bhp over the standard kit?

It really depends what your goals are. With 7psi I'd say the car is very driveable - a chargecooler would give you some 'free' extra BHP by reducing intake temps, so IMO is worth doing. I've not yet seen a air to air intercooler on the back of the Roadster that I'm convinced would work well - heat soak from the engine / exhaust is a real issue.

The standard ECU will manage to run the PE turbo without chargecooling as it can compensate on the base map by a long way - some have found it even able to run the larger 2zz injectors which is impressive.

In terms of extra costs - the standard clutch is fine even for turbo use. Exhaust - I'd consider getting a custom one made up to replace the standard CAT / PE turbo downpipe combination. I've got a free flowing 2.5" system and its not too loud, and compared to the standard CAT/backbox lets the turbo breathe much more easily.

[BenF]

Just to add that I finally got to drive the car today and it's fantastic!

It has ditchfinder rear tyres on it and with the turbo spooling - even only at 3k revs - the back end starts coming round in a nice controllable drift .

At the moment I can't see the need for more power and the chassis feels playful and communicative - a step forward over the MK1 and I'm looking forward to being able to drive it properly when the engine has bedded in.

Great to hear its running again

I'd get some quality tyres on the car asap so you can get the power down ( T1-Rs, or Advan Neovas ) and consider getting a 4 wheel alignment at Elite down in Dagenham - it can transform the handling.

I'd agree, it definitely feels very like a Mk1 when you're driving it - lots of feedback and good fun to play with

[Captain Vimes]

Thanks for all the info!

I'm planning on going down to Elite on Saturday but I was going to go for the RE040's as I don't like the idea of the soft side walls of the T1-R's and as I've got the 15" rears, the Advans won't fit.
I'll get the geo done too as I dropped the suspension off so it's bound to be out.

I've got a CEL on but I don't know whether it's related to the A/F. However, being an import I think reading it will be difficult. I'll get it on a RRoad just to be sure.

Once I've done a few miles I'll probably come back to the Charge/intercooler question.

Thanks again.

[BenF]

Hmm, where abouts in Essex are you? If you can get to Colchester, we could meetup - I've got some trackday used T1-R's on 15" rims ( that have road legal tread on them) that you could put on your car to take for a drive and 'try'.

Personally, I think the 15" rims are actually the best for handling on a roadster. The later 15- 16" combination, although you can run Advan Neovas gives a slightly understeery balance to the car on the limit - but that can be overcome with a prod of the right pedal

As for tyres - I actually don't think the T1-R is that bad a tyre, especially for the price. You do get good feedback from it, and a nice elastic break away on the limit. With stiffer sidewalls and tyres, generally the break away is less progressive.

For the CEL - I've got a code reader, and AFAIK it should be able to read the diagnostics from JDM cars with no problems. As you've swapped the engine, it might be more than the usual grumbling I get from mine about not being able to lean the 'long term fuel mix' out enough.

[Captain Vimes]

Thanks Ben I may well take you up on that offer of the code reader.

Looks like I'll be running t1-r after all as the 040's are on back order and won't be in until the end of the month.
The difference in cost was actually only £10 per tyre to go bridgestones but as the tyres I have are well past their best I don't want to wait.

[Goto10]

I've had 2 sets of T1-Rs in recent years, this time I went for Vredestein Ultracs (also from Elite in Rainham), almost the exact same price as the Toyos but I've found them to be grippier in damp conditions (rear end feels planted and far less twitchy) and also more progressive on the limit. Definitely worth a try, I'll be using them again next tyre change anyway.