Donington Park - 7th August - Evening session - fast MR2s...

[jonb-]

I'm happy with how the car behaves (but realise track is a different to road so yes would follow you round and get a feel for it) it's more the track etiquette, rules and regs etc. I'm not planning to drive like the Stig first time out

IMHO I'd use an evening session just to get used to the track experience before paying for someone to sit next to you.

if you're smart and alert there will be no reason you'll get in any ones way, it's always the idiots with ego complexes that won't let you pass (I'm honestly not talking about every porsche, scooby and evo driver ever here...)

[skinthespin]

I think tuition is ok, but how much value will it represent when your concentrating hard on not getting in peoples way or indeed the excitement of being out on track for the first time, I don't know how much you would take from it if its your first trackday tbh, maybe better to get used to being out there first and then when you get tuition you will listen more and get more from it.

I will have a passenger seat in my car too so feel free to come out with me, I should charge for rides--lol

[Tomiam]

On my first ever track day (with Bookatrack) I got tuition. I have to say it was absolutely invaluable. Sorry folks who posted above but I completely agree with Garrick.
I learnt how to hold the wheel, sounds dumb but I didnt know about the 1/4 to 3 positioning. I learnt loads about controlling the balance of the car and how to drive around the track taking (read as: attempting to take) the proper lines. All the stuff which I now take for granted, I didnt know on my first day. It wasnt a case that I needed tuition to learn how to drive like a pro, it was that I needed tuition to get me started on the basics and not develop any bad habits.
I had a bullet cam on the front bumper and a microphone in the car, so recorded all of the session and then played it back to learn again from it. Its right what people say above, it is hard to listen to instruction and drive fast at the same time.

I figured, what harm could a little bit of tuition do right at the start verus what hard could NOT getting a little bit of tuition do.

For the sake of the £20 it cost me for the tuition, it was 100% worth it.

[System-G]

I have to admit my first couple of track days I apreciated having a regular trackdayer sat in the passenger seat to show me around/help with confidence. Or myself passengering (later in the day) to get a feel for how far I could push the car. Invariably though, my car would be very different to someone elses and you can not forget that.

I also get quite surprised when the occasional trackdayer who does around 4 - 6 trackdays a year offer advice to novices. Or even racers who are out there more often offering to "show the lines". It's downright dangerous - especially when those offering the advice have no real clue themselves.

The ARDS instructors are out on circuit nearly every day, they test for manufacturers, test race teams and compete (successfully) in top level racing.

And I'm sorry if you dissagree, but no one is going to be able to teach someone circuit driving as well as a qualified ARDS instructor.

If you want to walk before you run, get propper instruction from the outset. I wish I had

[skinthespin]

Why is it strange that the 'occasional trackdayer' gives advice? Whats the difference between that and a non-engineer giving advice on the technical forums?

I have done around 20 days at Donington in a car and a few more on a bike (where I had tuition), I am lapping in around 1.24 seconds and I know Jonb will be quicker than me, so I think we know where the lines are, neither of us race or ar ARDS qualified but does Patrick at Rogue have an engineering degree? No he doesn't but everyone would listen to his advice because he still knows what hes talking about, so I don't know the difference.

Someone has asked for our opinion and we gave it, as people who have done many trackdays at many tracks, you have a different opnion (which is still valid), its up to the individual as to who to listen to, liek I say I think its a lot to take in, i'd do a trackday or two to get used to the environment and then get tutoring if you want to, as I think you will get better value for money, no one has ever said its a waste of time.

[System-G]

Fair enough. We are all entitled to our opinions

Just for the record, I wasn't singling out you & Jon. It was a generalisation based on what I've seen whilst working for BaT and Fauldsport.

[jonb-]

That we are!

I think we're looking at this from a different perspective. You're recommending someone take tuition just to learn how to drive at a track day, not how to drive a car on track.

Simon and I are of the opinion tuition should be used to learn racecraft, as in how to drive a car on the limit, how to use the brakes the steer into an apex, when to trail the throttle, how to correct a slide etc etc, the list goes on. First time out on track there's a lot to take in, you've a new grip level to work out, basic lines, how the car feels on track tarmac, and about 20-30 other idiots trying to be on the same piece of road as you. It's been a while since I did my first trackday, and I'm sure it has been for you to, but I can't imagine trying to get used to all that with an instructor next to me trying to make me actually drive the car hard.

Anyway, each to their own. I understand your point for very green users with no mates there but as Si pointed out there are a lot of locals and donny regulars going so learning the basic lines doesn't need to be paid for. The rest of the time, in my opinion, should just be getting used to the car and how you feel about it rather than pushing to 10/10ths.

[System-G]

You're recommending someone take tuition just to learn how to drive at a track day, not how to drive a car on track.

Not at all. I was sugesting taking tuition to learn how to drive propperly and effectively on track (and also to help build up confidence dfor outright novices).

If neither of you have taken tuition before, I'd strongly recommend it - you'd be surprised what you could learn

[Lauren]

I think what Garrick is trying to say is that its actually quite important to get some instruction to get the fundamental basics right. Its much easier to correct bad technique early on I think.

Stuff like correct use of the steering, relationship of steering and throttle, how to approach braking that kind of thing.

Get the basics right and you've at least got the right techniques to build upon and you should be safer as a result too.

[System-G]

Its much easier to correct bad technique early on I think.

Get the basics right and you've at least got the right techniques to build upon and you should be safer as a result too.

Ding

[mr2mk1chick]

I think we're looking at this from a different perspective. You're recommending someone take tuition just to learn how to drive at a track day, not how to drive a car on track.

Simon and I are of the opinion tuition should be used to learn racecraft, as in how to drive a car on the limit, how to use the brakes the steer into an apex, when to trail the throttle, how to correct a slide etc etc, the list goes on. First time out on track there's a lot to take in, you've a new grip level to work out, basic lines, how the car feels on track tarmac, and about 20-30 other idiots trying to be on the same piece of road as you. It's been a while since I did my first trackday, and I'm sure it has been for you to, but I can't imagine trying to get used to all that with an instructor next to me trying to make me actually drive the car hard.

Jon - for a track newbie an instructor is hardly going to go into the technical side and push you to the limits. They are goign to go over exactly what you mentioned: lines, braking, steering/throttle balance, track etiquette.
For a track experienced person an instructor will do a lot more with you.

They can pitch it at whatever level
I find its invaluable to get it right from the start

[jonb-]

Jon - for a track newbie an instructor is hardly going to go into the technical side and push you to the limits. They are goign to go over exactly what you mentioned: lines, braking, steering/throttle balance, track etiquette.
For a track experienced person an instructor will do a lot more with you.
They can pitch it at whatever level
I find its invaluable to get it right from the start

Hey

I think the difference is simply I feel he can learn lines, braking, track etiquette with Simons help and a dose of common sense where as Garrick thinks an instructor is needed.

At least we both agree when you say an instructor will do a lot more for a track experienced person, ie be much better value for money

At the end of the day if you're scared about the experience pay someone to hold your hand. If your confident you know how to drive at a reasonable pace, learn from other cars on the track (not always the best idea but you can get the general overview) and look in your rear view mirror often enough not to ruin any ones day I think you'll use the evening just getting used to the experience. Then pay someone to teach you to drive fast.

[steve b]

On my first ever track day (with Bookatrack) I got tuition. I have to say it was absolutely invaluable. Sorry folks who posted above but I completely agree with Garrick.
I learnt how to hold the wheel, sounds dumb but I didnt know about the 1/4 to 3 positioning. I learnt loads about controlling the balance of the car and how to drive around the track taking (read as: attempting to take) the proper lines. All the stuff which I now take for granted, I didnt know on my first day. It wasnt a case that I needed tuition to learn how to drive like a pro, it was that I needed tuition to get me started on the basics and not develop any bad habits.

For the sake of the £20 it cost me for the tuition, it was 100% worth it.

100% agree and did the same thing 1st day out with Bookatrack. I did one session poorly, not knowing where I should be on track, what sort of speeds corners could realistically be taken, how late to brake, etc. Next session I got David De Costa in the passenger seat. He altered my driving position then told me to drive round the track as quickly as I was comfortable and didn't say a word, next lap, he started pointing me to lines I should be taking. Next lap came in swapped positions he drove 3 laps talking through every bend, every line, how hard to brake how to turn in, etc kept this going for 3 laps then came in and swapped over again. Went out then with me putting into practice what he'd told me and him talking me through any bits I wasn't doing properly etc.

By the later evening sessions the wee n/a sw20 was very far from being the slowest on track looing like a learner.

[mr2mk1chick]

At least we both agree when you say an instructor will do a lot more for a track experienced person, ie be much better value for money

:

i kinda meant that they would cover more in-depth stuff with an exp person, not that you would get any more or less benefit
"For a track experienced person an instructor will do a lot more with you. " with you not for you, is they will also do a lot 'for' an inexperienced person to get them going/improving at a faster rate than if no instruction.

i am 'for' instruction, but agree that a good trackdayer sat in the passenger seat can also be of help, just that an instructor will potentially be of 'more' help due to their huge experience (to someone at any level)

I did my first trackday with a very experienced person (IMOC'er) who talked me through the whole thing all the time from the passenger seat and it was really useful, and i made great progress through the day.
If i han't had that person there, then i would have had an instructor.

Can you be as dedicated if you are drving on the day too?

anyhow - it sounds like he will have plenty of help from all sides

[jonb-]

Great evening, thank you everyone who came.

Can't wait to see the videos and pictures. Some of them are priceless.

Edit: Does anyone know the url for the official photographer?

[Andy-Runner]

Jon,

I got a business card for them mate, he said to email him so he can forward you the thumbnails to check if there's any you want. We all agreed they are brilliant

Email: [email protected]
www.xtremesportsphotography.net


Thanks to both you and Si for a brilliant evening


Andy

[Andy-Runner]

Oh, just a taster: 3 tubbies setting out.................

[skinthespin]

Top evening, got some good pointers on what to do next with the car, such as put more than 9psi in the rear tyre, less than 35 in the front left, need new pads and discs all round, new alternator (only just made it home) and maybe spend more than £20 on a set of tyres......

Will have to ditch the passenger seat and consequently passenger to give Jonb a run for his money next time.

Good to catch up with you both again, always a pleasure!!!

PS, lets get some pics up Andy and some video!!! (top pics from your mates btw)

[jonb-]

Will have to ditch the passenger seat and consequently passenger to give Jonb a run for his money next time.

Your car is lighter than mine anyway, stop making excuses

Funny how alternators always die after oil changes, if you miss the oil filler you end up covering it then it dies. I bought a massive funnel for that very reason.

[Andy-Runner]

Just getting all the pics and video compiled today/tommorrow. I'll post some up here and then send you both a dvd (pm me your addresses )


Just trying to edit out my 720 degree spin on the start/finish straight. . . . . . .