Don't like my Focal Speakers :(

[jrleech]

Fitted a set of Focal 130 Poly Kevlar (5") component speakers to the front of my Mk2 recently, driven by a decent Alpine CDA-9831R headunit. Also running an Infinity Kappa 102.7 sub off a Genesis Profile Sub amplifier.

Really not impressed with the Focals. I can get the equaliser on the Alpine set so they sound right with the engine off, but when driving, I can't get a setting that sounds right. It's like the volume change doesn't give a linear frequency response. I've heard that Focals eat power, so maybe they need an amp, but I'd have hoped the amps in the Alpine were good enough to drive 5" speakers.

The worrying thing is, it sounded better before fitting the Focals, and then it had stock tweeters and a pair of 5" Pioneer co-axial speakers (i.e. mid & tweeter, so 2 sets of tweeters either side).

The main problem I've got at speed is that when a track changes, sometimes it takes 20 seconds for my ears to 'tune to the key' of the next track... I never had this problem in my Mk1 with 4" speakers!

So.... Ordered some Infinity Kappa 65.7cs components, some Infinity Reference 3002cf rears and a new JVC KD-SHX851 head unit (never liked the Alpine anyway ) I've always had good results with the Infinity speakers, so hopefully they'll sound better.

I've got a set of 4" Component Focal 100KP's for my Mk1, but they'll be run off an amp, so hopefully they'll not have the problem these ones have.

Cheers,
Jon

[Urban Assault Vehicle]

Thtas disppointing mate as I've been looking at getting some Focal speakers. Heard a lot of people say some really good things about them.

Would be good if you could keep us posted on the outcome as I'm in the market for either Focal or Infinity speakers so its always good to hear peoples experiences.

Cheers
Graeme

[cantfindausername]

I had a set of Poly Kevlar 6" comps, and I was most impressed with them. Reason for choosing them was because I didn't need a sub to get good bass sound. I wanted a set that I could run on their own without needing a sub as I needed the space behind the seat. These were running off a caliber amp.

They were expensive, and I would get a set again, but when I was buying them I had a comparison done in the shop. He showed me 3 different 6" sets, and the difference was quite something. These best suited my needs though.

If they're new, could you take them back and ask to try some other ones? Bit cheeky, but you never know.

[jrleech]

They were secondhand, off Ebay... which could be the cause of the problems I suppose.

It's hard to tell what a speaker will be like in a moving car by listening in a shop.

Realised this morning that the Infinity speakers I've ordered to replace them are 2 ohm, and the new JVC head unit isn't, so I'll be running a Genesis Profile 4 to drive the speakers now... more expense

Cheers,
Jon

[paul port]

Well I suggest you try that amp with the focals before giving up!
I've only ever used 'internal amps' for running rear-fill, never the critical front speakers.

Any aftermarket will take some playing with for best results, Xover settings, placement, angle etc... I tried Kef Uni-Q's in the Mk2 and they sounded awful simply because you could not get enough angle on the driver, even modifying the central tweeter to angle it made little difference. This was the primary reason for getting a Focal 3-way set. All critical imaging frequencies could be easily angled towards the rear centre of the car, and the result is amazing. The bass extension on a PolyKevlar 165mm driver is astonishing.

If you can foot-well mount a 4-5" Coax or component, then do it. Xover to another driver (Less critical placement) above 150-200Hz and you'll be fine. Although you'll still have mid coming from the bass driver - it will be very directional from the cone and therefore lost to your ears if mounted flush in the door or behind.

Paul

[jrleech]

Hi Paul,

I'm going to take the Focal's out anyway, as I've had a few problems with one of the tweeters not working until I up the volume a lot, then it's fine again. They were probably thrashed by the previous owner

I hear what you're saying, the stock mountings for the Mk2 are pretty poor, speakers in doors are far from ideal. I've always said the Mk1 sounds better and it's mainly down to the speakers being in the dash, pointing (sort of ) towards you, not into your shins.

In the Mk1 I had used the internal amps on the Nakamichi CD400 to drive the Infinity Kappa 4" and 3.5" speakers, (plus a Clarion active sub) with superb results.

I really didn't want to go as far as I've gone, but I'm not buying yet another set of speakers I want to keep everything in the stock location, and not have to start moulding extra mounts for more speakers.

It just annoys me that I got a better sound using a simple setup in my Mk1 and now I'm using more expensive gear in the Mk2 and it's not as good.

Don't get me wrong, with the engine off, it sounds very good, but when I turn up the volume to compensate for road/engine noise, the equaliser settings don't sound right and I can't get them right.

Cheers,
Jon

[Neil_turbo]

I'm always thinking how much better the mk1 sounds than my mk2. Despite having 1/4 value worth of kit

Going to be re-moulding the door pods this winter to get some angle, maybe thats the answer

Gutted its not sounding right for you though mate

[jrleech]

Bass is good though

[DavidJ]

John, sorry to hear you're not getting results with your Mk2. I'll be at Stoneleigh next weekend - if you're coming with the Mk1, I'd love to have a listen to your setup.

Can I be cheeky and briefly hijack your thread to get some advice from Paul? This topic has made me nervous..

Paul, I've got a Nakamichi CD400, Focal 4" slimline components and aim to run these with a Genesys Profile amp, also powering an Exile 10" slimline woofer behind the passenger seat. Plus some decent cable. I will be using a fitter I've been recommended, but any comments you have or suggestions for placement would be well received. Between the lines, I'm just after some reassurance it's possible to make this setup match my expectations (which are unhealthily high).

Thanks in advance,

David

[jrleech]

That's pretty much the setup I'll be running in my Mk1, Nak CD400, Focal Components (new ones this time), Genesis Amps, good sub etc..

I'd also recommend a pair of Infinity 3002cf's for the rear, I personally feel them do make a difference. Sat in the car without the engine on, then I'd agree that just the fronts gives better imaging, but at speed, the rears help out a lot and give something other than engine noise from behind you.

I'm sure you'll be more than happy with the results, Mk1's rule

[Neil_turbo]

Bass is good though

HAHA glad to hear it mate!

[DavidJ]

hi john,

i agree with you, and will definitely rewire the rears. but now i suppose you'll say i should buy and tweak the rears together with the whole setup. i think you've just cost me £50 (somehow)

tempted by some rainbows for the rear, but is that just because i like real rainbows?

are you coming to Stoneleigh?

[jrleech]

Can't make it to Stoneleigh I'm afraid. Not sure if the rainbows will fit in the back, the Infinity's have these fancy new high power magnets that are small and light, where as the rainbow's have the traditional big lump of iron. The Infinity's certainly fit well, and there's not much weight for the G-forces to fight against (only 2 mounting screws for rear speakers).

Seen the Reference 3002cf's for £35... .bargin really!!

Just received a Genesis Compact 4 amp that I bought off ebay. Brand new, still in it's cling film cover, half price Was sort of expecting an empty box, so well happy... That's going in the Mk1.

Cheers,
Jon

[paul port]

John, sorry to hear you're not getting results with your Mk2. I'll be at StCan I be cheeky and briefly hijack your thread to get some advice from Paul? This topic has made me nervous..

Me?

Ok... I would have to say I would worry about only a 4" to deliver a full front stage (Even though it's a Focal), that said the Mk1 is dash mount?
I would be tempted to get some simple door builds and fit a 6.5" there rather than the sub. You can still use the Xover in the Genesis Profile 4? crossing <150Hz or so.
One thing you need to understand about the MR2.. The cabin is small, and this has an effect on the phenomenon known as 'Cabin Gain'. Basically you get a bass boost of 6dB/Oct (or is it 12?) below a certain frequency due to cabin volume. Personally I get a little more bass extension with the Tbar out or the windows open a crack. A dedicated sub is only good if you like the 'pressure' or a distinct kick in the kidneys.

For the 165's, you could consider a JL 6w0 or other respected make - I don't think a great deal of the focal 5ws in a car (I have a pair I tried, they will probably end up attached to the PC )
Considering the additional cost, you may consider going to a full 3-way Polyglass 165 V3E Slim - it would certainly be my 'starting point' and only go to the sub if I wasn't satisfied and was happy with the added bulk.

Being in Reading, I assume your dealer is John Kleis? they are a Focal / Gensis dealer, and have been in the game a LONG time. They may be open to demo-ing a set 'in car' - the typical wall demo-stand setup is not the best for comparison, as the baffle size will extend driver bass response artificially. Whatever you do, spend a little money on Dynamat or similar (Does ‘Brown Bread’ or ‘Aura Dead Sheet’ still exist?) for the back of the surrounding dash plastic as I suspect it will make a huge difference.


I have been into car audio for many years… Spurned on by a university + career interest in professional Sound & Light.
I used to compete in IASCA UK Competitions 93/94 with a Peugeot 309 using (in it’s last guise) a home designed pair of compression driver ‘Waveguides’ using the windscreen for horrn extension with a pair of Focal 8K011db’s and passive 24dB Xovers and a pair of infinite baffle Infinity Reference 12’s (the original carbon ones)

The MR2, since I first bought it in 2000 has had:

Kef Uni-Q KAR160Q + Focal 8k5412 (I think) on a Soundstream Ref 405 + Alesis MEQ230 with balanced line conversion

Kef Uni-Q KAR160Q + Focal 8k5412 (I think) on a Soundstream Ref 405 + Behringer DSP8024 (31ch EQ and RTA) boot mounted.

Focal 165K3 + Focal 8k5412 (I think) on the same setup

Focal 165K3 with a Phoenix Gold M50 under the passenger seat

Focal 165K3 fully active with Focal 5WS behind seats using a Rockford Fosgate EPX-II Xover and EQ, and two Soundstream Ref405’s modified by me

Focal 165K3 Passive with Focal 5WS Xover by the headunit, M50 for the 5ws Phoenix gold ZPA0.5 for the 165K3’s (Absolutely Beautiful amp)

Currently:
Focal 165K3 with a Phoenix Gold M50 under the passenger seat

The Phrase ‘KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID’ really fits… K.I.S.S. for short.

The Focal 165K3’s have been the best Car Audio Investment I have ever made.



I’m based in Aylesbury… Working in High Wycombe. You are welcome to have a listen of the car anytime… I expect to be over Reading way in the next few weeks when Bracknell T&B get my tyres in (Plus I need to visit a place in Reading to look at Spectrum Analyzers!)

Paul

PS, Cable…
In a car, any special ‘properties’ of speaker cable will be lost as soon as you stick it next to a steel chassis! Any good phono cable should do in car – DON’T be tempted to spend a fortune, experiment at a later date (get something OK from Richer Sounds) – Speaker cable, QED 79-Strand is good enough – just look for THICK as you are dealing with 4Ohm speakers remember.

[paul port]

Ooh..
Quick update, Falcon acoustics (Source of all my passive Xover components for years):
http://www.falcon-acoustics.co.uk/
Page 11 is listing some GOOD prices on Car Poly Kevlar 130/165 components.

I'm Biased I know...

[jrleech]

Paul,

Obviously I've got a non-professional history with car audio, but I'm inclined to disagree about replacing the 4" dash mounts with 165 door builds. Out of the 2, I'd choose the 4" dash any time, speakers on the floor are just plain wrong . I've not heard a Mk2 with a soundstage to match a Mk1, and the main difference is speaker location.

However, a 3 way system with 165's in the door, 4" in the dash and the tweeters on the A-pillar would be very good. Not sure if it would give you much improvement over good 4" component set and subwoofer though?

I'd read somewhere that the DC resistance of your cable should be less than 5% of the impedance of your speaker, so for 2ohm speakers you need a bigger cable than 4ohm etc... Based on that, 14 gauge cable should suffice for pretty much all car setups (thicker if running silly power subs!).

Cheers,
Jon

[paul port]

However, a 3 way system with 165's in the door, 4" in the dash and the tweeters on the A-pillar would be very good. Not sure if it would give you much improvement over good 4" component set and subwoofer though?

Actually, that is what I was proposing... Using the active Xover in the amp to cross a separate 165mm bass driver in a door build (Assuming the Mk1 has no stock door location) in addition to the 4" components in the dash. This should add weight to and pull the image further forward. The JL 6w0 is not a full range speaker

Alternatively, if a similar price, go for the full 3-way passive Xover set and bridge the amp to 2 channels.

If you then really want the kidney kick - you can always add a sub at a later date (at the expense of weight / bulk)

The main reason for me going back to the simple 1 amp, 3 way components and no sub is because it really works well… and is much lighter than any of the other hi-fi incarnations I have tried.

Paul.

For reference, the Foacl PolyGlass 165 V3e 3-ways (165mm Bass driver, 100mm Mid + Tweet) and Xover costs £352 Inc from Ray-Smith:
http://www.raysmith.co.uk/Focal/165-V3E/

The only negative thing I can see is that there is no Mid level adjustment - only tweeter, but you won't know if this is an issue until you try them!

For comparison, the Kevlar 100mm components are £267 and the Glass 100's are £186. You won't get a good sub for <100, so I think the 165V3e's are the best option.

[jrleech]

Thanks for the info Paul.

I'm happy with the Mk1 setup (based on what I had previously), I've not fitted it yet but I've got:

- Focal K2 Power 100KP Components
- Infinity Kappa 32.7cf for rear
- Genesis Compact 4 Series 3 Amp
- Phase Linear Aliante 10si Sub in one of Neils excellent boxes
- Genesis Profile Sub
- Nakamichi CD400

The Aliante 10si is very highly regarded and supposed to be very musical, so I think it'll do the job. Obviously if it's lacking bass then I'll look at 165's in the doors, but with a basic Clarion active sub it was never lacking so I should be OK with the setup above.


The Mk2 is harder, as there's no-where easy to mount a mid speaker higher up. I was looking at mine today and thought a 4" underneath the tweeter built into the door as part of a 3 way set might work extreemly well. I'll try the amp'd Infinity Kappa's first, hopefully they'll be enough as I've spent too much already.... I'd love a set of 165K3P's set up this way, but nooooooooo

Will fit a bit more soundproofing too, that always helps!