Alternator to Battery + cable

Anything to do with the electrics of the car.

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SwitchBlade
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:07 pm

Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by SwitchBlade »

Right can anyone give me some hints to where the aforementioned cable is routed to make my job of tracing and replacing somewhat easier. The stock cable is far too small for the power I'm pulling for my ICE install and need to upgrade it to something suitable (read as welding cable). Would there be enough space where the existing cable is run to fit in larger or should I be looking at running a different route with my cable?
johnnymr2

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by johnnymr2 »

are you loking at this right mate :-k the standard alt, battery & wiring are suitably rated to each other and so the battery is going to be the limiting factor here. unless you have uprated the battery and thus the altenator then the wiring should still be suitable
SwitchBlade
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:07 pm

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by SwitchBlade »

Stock cabling is designed for the power expected to be needed by the car. The stock cable is only about 8awg, and running the length of the car is nowhere near large enough when you are pulling higher currents without getting voltage drop. Upgrading the battery won't stop the voltage drop, just give a better reservoir of power once the voltage has dropped. It's surprising the difference that this upgrade will make in a normal car let alone one where the alt and battery are sepparated by such a long distance.
johnnymr2

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by johnnymr2 »

but the battery is rated at a certain APH and will only allow the rated current to be drawn for a designated amount of time. the altenator will be rated to o/p enough current to supply the battery. the cabling will be rated to the maximum permissable o/p of the altenator. when you are drawing peak power this is supplied from the battery NOT the altenator. the amount of volt drop along that run is negligable, the volt drop that you need to keep to a minimum is from the battery to the amp etc. how much current is your ice going to draw? if your going to the point where you need to start up grading cable csa then you should start to look at the entire supply system. if your going to the stage of upping the alt wires due to volt drop over that short run then you are you taking into account the derating factors of bunching, ambient temp, retaining methods, passing through insulation, etc. as this wil all effect volt drop :wink:
Last edited by johnnymr2 on Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SwitchBlade
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:07 pm

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by SwitchBlade »

Nope the power is provided by the alt, once you get to a point where the power is provided by the battery it's gone too far. If the cable wasn't the bottleneck why would an upgrade be the first advised upgrade path before looking at uprated alternators etc. Because it makes a difference, even in a car with a couple of feet from the alt to the battery, why would IASCA and EMMA recommend it if it wasn't useful eh?
johnnymr2

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by johnnymr2 »

the amount of volt drop across that small run will be un-noticable surely? if your really worried about volt drop then surely a cap is th way to go. the equipment that will be ran off the supply will have a wide voltage supply band, i.e 10v - 15v the alt will o/p 14.4v or something like that. plus the battery will supply the amp at what ever voltage, this will then be inverted. im not saying dont do it, its your car, but look to see if its actually required. look at the amount of current you will be drawing and remember that the stated current will be momentarily and cable rating will be for constant current draw. i have never had to uprate this cable in any of the installs that i have done. i have just spoke to a guy who works for a well know installers and he has upped the size of the alt cables in conjunction with an up rated alt and battery.
SwitchBlade
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:07 pm

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by SwitchBlade »

Caps don't work, period, they don't help at all. The voltage drop on cable that size at the current I'm drawing is enough to be noticable on the car electrical system. Assuming the system is drawing less than a qurater of it's fused rating on music we are looking at a ~40amp draw, a bit more on transients. Along side the cars electrical requirements, IASCA recommend 4 gauge cabling as a minimum. While any voltage drop would be minimal on the sort of current the car's electrical will pull, once you are pulling more current you lose more power due to resistance of the cable and your voltage will drop at the other end of the cable.
johnnymr2

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by johnnymr2 »

:-#
SwitchBlade
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:07 pm

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by SwitchBlade »

Yeah I realise it's a bit strange buying a car like an MR2 and then weighing it down with a large system, but to me the sounds are as important as the car, the fact that it looks good and still performs well with a system weighing about as much as a passenger (possibly more if I actually weigh it) is one of my reasons behind driving an MR2 (then I drove one and loved it). Now while I keep umming and ahhhing about entering the competition scene I'd like to so it makes sense to me to do the job fully rather than lose points on a half ar$ed job. :)
MK_Steve

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by MK_Steve »

However, in answer to your question!

The cables (there's actually 2 of 'em running in parrallel) run from the alt, up into the fuse box in the engine bay, where there is a join, down and along the passenger side of the car to the passenger footwell where there is another join, and then into the frunk and up to the 120A fuse inside the fusebox.

Steve
SwitchBlade
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:07 pm

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by SwitchBlade »

Cheers Steve.
MK_Steve

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by MK_Steve »

If you suspect voltdrop to be a problem you could always calculate it?

If you the the material the wire is made from, and it's thickness, and the voltage you are going to be running through it, you can work out the volt drop. Cant remember the equation off the top of my head.

But being as there are actually 2 cables running in parrallel all the way back to the battery, you may have a bigger cross sectional area of copper than you orrigionaly thought.

Steve
SwitchBlade
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:07 pm

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by SwitchBlade »

On mine there's only one running to the battery for some reason. Haven't looked at the alt end yet tbh, was just wondering where it ran so if the sun decided to come out at some point this side of christmas (unlikely at this rate ;)) I could look at running a fatter cable alongside.
MK_Steve

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by MK_Steve »

It's only 2 wires up until the fusebox in the front trunk upto the 120A fuseable link. The short path between there and the battery is a single cable.



Steve
johnnymr2

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by johnnymr2 »

the calculation is simple ohms law and there will be only 1 cable as the alt and batt will share a common ground
MK_Steve

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by MK_Steve »

Ermm, nope. there's deffinitley 2 running in parrallel all the way to the 120A fuseable link.

The wiring diagrams also show this.

If you pop the lid off the engine bay fuse box you should see 2 large white wires comming in and screwing down to another pair underneath the red cover.

Steve
MK_Steve

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by MK_Steve »

Ermm, nope. there's deffinitley 2 running in parrallel all the way to the 120A fuseable link.

The wiring diagrams also show this.

If you pop the lid off the engine bay fuse box you should see 2 large white wires comming in and screwing down to another pair underneath the red cover.

Steve
johnnymr2

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by johnnymr2 »

sorry steve you are right just looked at mine :oops:
MK_Steve

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by MK_Steve »

the only reason i know is cos i've been staring at the dam things all week scratching my head!

i wouldn't have expected 2 either. maybe it's easier of cheaper to run 2 thinner ones rater than 1 fat one

Steve
Gordy
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:26 pm

Re: Alternator to Battery + cable

Post by Gordy »

The alternator-to-battery connection is designed to cope with maximum alternator output while remaining within the Toyota engineering specification for voltage drop. Changing the cable alone will do nothing significant. Uprate your alternator and the cable at the same time, or don't bother.
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