CHARGE COOLER + WATER INJECTION ??

[raptor95GTS]

Didn't spitfires have a chargecooler when running in 1200bhp spec? If it was good enough for the 'few'.............

chargecooled and then WI for those oh my gawd moments

[V8Killer]

Disagree all you like, but you're wrong.

WOW…get off your high horse…LOL…this kind of topic comes up every now and again. Theres people with it and theres people that are not with it. Everyway you think I am wrong, I think your wrong. Which is why I said we’ll have to agree to disagree!

Rally cars use WI, as they are limited as to the size and type of charge cooling they can use. Cars at TOTB use it because it keeps control of charge temps which can escalate under continuous load. Actually, having now looked into it, most of the top cars at TOTB don't run WI at all, since they're all running Nitrous, which obviously has greater charge cooling properties than either water or water methanol mix.

All the top cars at TOTB run WI. Fensport, Calder, Norris, RC Developments, Roger Clark, etc etc…period. AFAIK rally cars have no restriction on intercooling. And even if they did, have you seen the size of their front mount intercoolers? They are mahoosive!

Then what you're saying is that you use a mapped WI system. I presume then that your mapped WI is operated with boost and ACT inputs, which would mean that your regular charge cooling is inefficient if it comes on at all. If you know this not to be the case, then at what charge temp does the ECU begin to retard the ignition?

It began injection at around 12psi…I can’t remember the exact details, it was 4 years ago, but the before and after figures showed an increase of 25-30BHP IIRC. I still have graphs somewhere to prove, in-fact and will dig ‘em out when I get a second!

What sort of charge temps are you actually seeing that lead you to believe you need WI?

Charge temps were around 42 degrees celcius IIRC on a VERY VERY hot day…with a Greddy IC and 2 x SPAL fans. But like I said the main reason I personally used WI was because it allowed me to use a 50/50 mix of methonal/water, which then allowed the mapper to get that last extra bhp from my engine safely (though in the end it didn’t matter since I cracked my weak a$s genIII block)!

As for seeing combustion chambers, yes I have - I used to work at a company building racing engines!

Good for you. When you get a second compare a WI combustion chamber and non-WI combustion chamber…I’ve seen a few first hand (3SGTEs, Cossies and 4G63s) and the difference in carbon build up is night and day. There are pictures over at www.mr2oc.com too if you care to have a look!

Answer all of the above questions, and answer me why, ignoring the methanol additive, you think WI is a gain? If you're so keen to add small amounts of a non air fuel mix to gain power, then stop messing around and use Nitrous.

Like I said the main reason for using WI on a road car is to help with detonation, but there are many additional benefits gained! According to the Aquamist site like you so kindly pointed out below it clearly states water has a huge specific latent heat capacity and helps create a denser charge…surely a denser charge with the right amount of fuel and spark will give you that more power, albeit helping against detonation at the same time!

RE: Nitrous…why? Maybe a proper nitrous system costs in the region of £700+, including setting it up and mapping it properly? Maybe because its consumed after a few hard runs if used? Maybe because its not exactly cheap to refill? Methonal costs about £2.50 for about 2.5 litres from a model shop and lasts about 300-400 miles on average!

Oh, and from Aquamist's own website:

Because of its huge specific- and latent- heat capacity, water is the perfect liquid for regulating excess heat under certain engine-operating conditions, for example induction charge air cooling; but its biggest contribution is inside the combustion chamber where, under excessive loading, pre-ignition and detonation can otherwise occur. Such abnormal combustion is particularly common in force induction engines, where exhaust temperature can exceed 1100°C!

Exactly read this carefully…would you agree that a denser intake charge will give one more power, IF MAPPED CORRECTLY?

To put this into perspective, imagine a CT26 at 21psi and a GT35R at 21psi. Which will make more? Yes…of course the GT35R. Why? Because of the denser charge from the larger turbo!

The sole function of water injection is avoiding detonation.

Agreed, but the additional benefits you get from a well mapped and setup water injection system are great to have!

By the way these conversations come up all the time on http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/

[RichardPON]

Except for the fact that you're adding methanol to claim yuor power increase, and then ignoring the fact that no-one else is talking about methanol/water mix.

Talk about stating the obvious!

Of course rally cars have a restriction on intercooling - go look at a Focus WRC chargecooler core for example - wide but very limited in height due to spec limitations.

What I don't understand, and I think you don't either is how your WI can possibly me mapped off a boost switch?

3d mappable WI has to have two inputs, namely ACT and Boost - what on earth is the point of injecting "pure" water (ignoring your methanol additive) when the charge temps are sufficiently good as to not require it?

You're assuming that injecing water makes a difference at any time it is put in. Why do you assume that?

Oh, and I actually have the head off my cossie engine right now, and the ports and vales look spot on - hardly any carbon deposits to speak off - not bad for an engine with 10k racing/track miles on it. No water injection either used on track either. You know why? It didn't require it!

[V8Killer]

Except for the fact that you're adding methanol to claim yuor power increase, and then ignoring the fact that no-one else is talking about methanol/water mix.

And your ignoring the fact that my point was methonal will get you more power, see my original post. Your also ignoring the fact a denser charge WILL get you more power and aquamist have said water has the greatest latent heat capacity and hence is the best cooling medium! Why do you insist on avoiding the fact that a denser intake charge WILL get you more power!

Talk about stating the obvious!

Talk about avoiding my questions mate

Of course rally cars have a restriction on intercooling - go look at a Focus WRC chargecooler core for example - wide but very limited in height due to spec limitations.

Well if its restriction no wonder the have to use WI to help with cooling! However, thinking about it now am pretty sure WRC cars inject a mix of fuel and water on the intake runners to further help cooling / anti lag systems! I've only ever seen the Impreza WRC intercooler at a motorshow and an Octavia intercooler. They are absolutely massive!

What I don't understand, and I think you don't either is how your WI can possibly me mapped off a boost switch?

Simple...the WI begins to flow at a preset boost level (or rpm) and the "flow rate" is adjusted throughout the rev range, until !

3d mappable WI has to have two inputs, namely ACT and Boost - what on earth is the point of injecting "pure" water (ignoring your methanol additive) when the charge temps are sufficiently good as to not require it?

3D mappable WI systems measure rpm and pressure for inputs, not ACT! Mapping the flow rate throughout the rev range can gain you a ton of power. Look at the specs of the Aquamist MF2 and many other WI systems out there, none of them have an map against ACT. Its purely used for monitoring.

You're assuming that injecing water makes a difference at any time it is put in. Why do you assume that?

I am not assuming that...if you look at my original post i said i gained the bulk of my power by adding an additive! But then again even you stated (from the Aquamist site) that water has a huge latent heat capacity and helps create a dense charge and we all know a dense charge brings one power if the fueling and spark is there...why do you avoid this common fact?

Oh, and I actually have the head off my cossie engine right now, and the ports and vales look spot on - hardly any carbon deposits to speak off - not bad for an engine with 10k racing/track miles on it. No water injection either used on track either. You know why? It didn't require it!

Compare it to a water injected combustion chamber!

What would be really helpful is if you could post some pictures of it too! In-fact i will try and get some pictures of a cossie engine combustion chamber with WI and without WI this weekend when am at my engine builders, who is in-fact a cossie engine specialist. He developed the head, camshafts and intake manifold for a top 8 second greek cossie

Ahhh...so your a cossie owner? Aren't you the guys that run 30psi through 6.8:1 CR engines or something?

Cheers...Muhsin

[V8Killer]

By the way goto the following:

http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/

Goto the gallery forum and then click on the 760HP Skyline thread...on page 3 of that thread it clearly states they gained 33HP from going without WI to WI (10/15% water/methonal mix)!

Also another thread of a Mustang gaining almost 75BHP from going to a WI system (or boost cooler as they like to call it over the pond)!

Cheers

[raptor95GTS]

allow me to try and summerise the wi arguement.

By adding an octance booster you can gain more power? Stunning news.

[DaveART]

And your ignoring the fact that my point was methonal will get you more power, see my original post. Your also ignoring the fact a denser charge WILL get you more power and aquamist have said water has the greatest latent heat capacity and hence is the best cooling medium! Why do you insist on avoiding the fact that a denser intake charge WILL get you more power!

Yes we know this, but if the point is below a certain charge temp, adding does not increase power but lose it (unless you are talking about det limiting)

If you had a car that was mapped conservatively (not near det) and had 30c inlet charges and then you added water, you would most likely lose power.

All the cars you have mentioned at TOTB are the most powerful, and I assume running circa 30psi +, and those temps, most intercoolers will still have over 40c on the cold side, hence WI will work and why they used it..

People have used WI on non turbo cars, so it proves it is for detonation issues.

[Spidey]

Maybe I've got it all wrong but I think ye are all agreeing ( in a roundabout way ) ? What I am asking below is all relating to WI, not methanol :

As far as I have understood from all the posts - WI will produce a denser charge and moer power - but has to be after a certain point. Injecting water into cold air will remain as water. ? Injecting it into hot air (i.e. after the "point") will produce denser air and more power ?

So, WI can produce more power and it also will prevent detonation.

But if injected into an already cool intake, can have no (or detrimental) effect ?

And on the subject of methanol - all agreed that it can give more power ?

Have I understood correctly ?????

Rob

[DaveART]

Maybe I've got it all wrong but I think ye are all agreeing ( in a roundabout way ) ? What I am asking below is all relating to WI, not methanol :

As far as I have understood from all the posts - WI will produce a denser charge and moer power - but has to be after a certain point. Injecting water into cold air will remain as water. ? Injecting it into hot air (i.e. after the "point") will produce denser air and more power ?

So, WI can produce more power and it also will prevent detonation.

But if injected into an already cool intake, can have no (or detrimental) effect ?

And on the subject of methanol - all agreed that it can give more power ?

Have I understood correctly ?????

Rob

What was the question?

[Spidey]

Maybe I've got it all wrong but I think ye are all agreeing ( in a roundabout way ) ? What I am asking below is all relating to WI, not methanol :

As far as I have understood from all the posts - WI will produce a denser charge and moer power - but has to be after a certain point. Injecting water into cold air will remain as water. ? Injecting it into hot air (i.e. after the "point") will produce denser air and more power ?

So, WI can produce more power and it also will prevent detonation.

But if injected into an already cool intake, can have no (or detrimental) effect ?

And on the subject of methanol - all agreed that it can give more power ?

Have I understood correctly ?????

Rob

What was the question?

My whole post was my understanding of the "issue" and the question was - was my understanding correct ?

Well, my WI system arrived today, so it's going in anyway - my intention is to only progressively use it above a fairly high boost level. And may look at Methanol as well.

[raptor95GTS]

My whole post was my understanding of the "issue" and the question was - was my understanding correct ?

Well, my WI system arrived today, so it's going in anyway - my intention is to only progressively use it above a fairly high boost level. And may look at Methanol as well.

why use it v pressure??? pointless . use it when the intake temp goes above say 40degC

[V8Killer]

Yeah...pointless...Water Injection may aswell be branded as a band aid

[Spidey]

My whole post was my understanding of the "issue" and the question was - was my understanding correct ?

Well, my WI system arrived today, so it's going in anyway - my intention is to only progressively use it above a fairly high boost level. And may look at Methanol as well.

why use it v pressure??? pointless . use it when the intake temp goes above say 40degC

I didn't mean to pick a boost pressure - what i meant was to ascertain at what boost pressure you start to get knock. Then use the WI from that point ? so, the knock is indirectly related to high intake temps ?

If I can conclusively say when boosting 1.3 bar I always get knock, then would I be okay in running it off boost ??

For example - my engine intake temps were very good (due to ST205 CC) but engine seems to be overheating (not sure of cause yet) - so, I am getting knock. So, by monitoring only intake temps, the WI wouldn't activate.

Maybe WI should activate based on a number of different triggers ? ( Intake temps / Knock) ???

Am I wrong in saying intake temps are indirectly related to boost ?

Reason i ask is that I just (this morning) got the following system

http://www.devilsownonline.com/product_ ... ucts_id=12

and not sure if I can use it off anything other than boost. A good bit cheaper than Aquamist but I think it will do the job ??

Rob

[The Morris]

i dont understan the negativity towards water injection, if it is not your main source of cooling.

I have a greddy for cooling and the WI sprayed into the inlet manifold for protection against detonation. How can that be a negative

[Spidey]

i dont understan the negativity towards water injection, if it is not your main source of cooling.

I have a greddy for cooling and the WI sprayed into the inlet manifold for protection against detonation. How can that be a negative

I think it's great - when used at right time. How/when do you decide to inject ? by intake temps ? boost pressure sensor ? knock ?

Rob

[raptor95GTS]

well surely finding out why the engine is overheating would be your top priority??

What intake temps are you getting?

[Spidey]

I was already toying with idea of a rebuild with forgies, low compression engine. So, I bit the bullet and went for it - said goodbye to my car last Sat and hope to have it back in 3-4 weeks. They'll do the rebuild and also figure out what was causing the overheating.

Build is going to include Ross pistons, uprated HG, Rev1 block, Rev3 head, misc build items, thermostatically controlled oil coler, convert my T3/T4 to an external wastegate setup. And of course the Water/methanol injection. Then he'll remap the AVC-R and SAFC-2.

Had made 310rwhp @ 1.46 a few months back. Guy is planning to build an engine to run at about 1.7/1.8bar - which may get me around 350rwhp ??

Rob

[jonno]

My cossie mates dont rate WI, primarily because they run 7:1 CR engines at 2 bar with RS500 IC's - they dont suffer from det, at all, ever!. So amazingly they dont see the need for det control.

My Jap car mates love WI, primarily because they are running 8.8 or 9:1 CR engines with tiny turbos, they have det, lots of it, all of the time. They use WI to compat det and bigger IC's to cool the intake charge. The combination seems to work well on high CR engines.

The bottom line is that WI really doesent help cool the intake charge all that much, unless of course you squirt it in by the gallon!. Its only realy got one serious use and that is det control, it works by slowing down the combustion process - which robs you of power. If your running pure water you would probably be better off just retarding the ignition a smidge. Running 50/50 mix with methanol *sometimes* gives performance gains by allowing the ignition to be advanced a little, although that still assumes that the intake charge wasnt sky high in the first place.

Im confused about the reference to TOTB cars running WI though? Certainly Calders Supra and Roger Clarke's impreza DONT use it. Chatting to Dave Rowe a few weeks ago while he was working on the CRD Supra he said that there was no need to run WI if your running nitrous since the intake charge cooling of nitrous was so much better.

Personally I dont use WI anymore, although I know plenty that do and swear by it.

I suspect the combustion chamber being cleaner is down to the original map being too rich in an attempt to combat det and the WI is just cleaning up the mess. Certainly when my last engine gave way, the cylinder that cracked looked lovely and clean compared to the others. That engine was mapped by Thor and the combustion chambers were full of carbon deposits, mainly due to the over rich ECU map. HOWEVER, since Dave Rowe mapped my ECU, when we last had the head off, the internals were spotless.

Make of that what you will - my personal theory is to use as few external systems as possible, which is why my WI is sitting in the shed right now.

Neil.