1990, Top Gear, Tiff reviews the mk2 rev1 n/a

[jonno]

i love these handling threads, you can learn so much from one of dino/laurens arguments =D>

Or fall asleep!

Or get told off

[ENSMR2]

Yep great thread.

I won't get invlved as my experience is pretty limited. But top comments and I can see where you are all coming from.

[ryan]

...Dino, I think you mean 'Rust Tinted Spectacles'

Tiff was complimentry when he drove my mk2 turbo around Bruintingthorpe last year, then again he was probably too polite to call it a bag-o-$hite.

Needed some new F1's after those 6 laps though

Lauren, one day you'll see the light

Well Tiff is hardly going to slag off your car to you is he seeing as he's paid to be there!

The light is in the form of an 86.

I've driven tubbys, never been that impressed tbh... there are much better handling cars around that are far more involving in all honesty.

Lauren, of course Tiff isn't going to slag off my car, thats what I said

However I did ask him for constructive criticism, as I said I wanted to improve handling/grip. He did say the car was 'progressive' and 'well balanced', but I knew that anyway.
I agree with you about the steering on a rev3 tubby, and it was no more apparent when I did a few laps in a F360 Modena recently; I couldn't believe how much the steering was telling me! I've never driven anything as raw as an elise/caterham etc, so maybe it gets even better
I'm pretty keen to get a bit more feedback from my tubbys steering, but I cant stretch to lightweight wheels at the moment, and also I like the look of the (probably) fairly heavy Veilside Andrews Evo rims .
I agree with Dino about the AVC-r upsetting the cars handling/balance though. The way the boost comes on is far more agressive than the standard set up, and there has been a couple of times, in the wet where this certainly has 'upset the apple cart'.
I assume the '86' you mention will be the Corolla RWD? Never driven one but have lots of respect for these motors

[Lauren]

Lauren, of course Tiff isn't going to slag off my car, thats what I said

However I did ask him for constructive criticism, as I said I wanted to improve handling/grip. He did say the car was 'progressive' and 'well balanced', but I knew that anyway.
I agree with you about the steering on a rev3 tubby, and it was no more apparent when I did a few laps in a F360 Modena recently; I couldn't believe how much the steering was telling me! I've never driven anything as raw as an elise/caterham etc, so maybe it gets even better
I'm pretty keen to get a bit more feedback from my tubbys steering, but I cant stretch to lightweight wheels at the moment, and also I like the look of the (probably) fairly heavy Veilside Andrews Evo rims .
I agree with Dino about the AVC-r upsetting the cars handling/balance though. The way the boost comes on is far more agressive than the standard set up, and there has been a couple of times, in the wet where this certainly has 'upset the apple cart'.
I assume the '86' you mention will be the Corolla RWD? Never driven one but have lots of respect for these motors

Absolutely fair comment Ryan. Honestly try an S1 elise you will be amazed at how the steering communicates. I extensively drove Jonny's honda civic type-R powered elise and you'd think the first thing i would comment on is having a power to weight of 350bhp/tonne but no it was the steering, it just feels so connected and the feedback amazed me, it was literally like an extension to your arms.

Yep 86 refers to the old corolla GT RWD.. these are great fun, had an absolute hoot drifting one recently.

[DoM]

Good thread, though I don't agree with most of Dino's comments!

For me handling is little to do with grip and corner speed and everything to do with the combination of feel and progression.

I will construct a more detailed reply when I'm not meant to be working

Dom

[MR2Mania]

Good thread, though I don't agree with most of Dino's comments!

For me handling is little to do with grip and corner speed and everything to do with the combination of feel and progression.

I will construct a more detailed reply when I'm not meant to be working

Dom

Dom, before you give your argument against my views, then read them carefully - especially the bit about the difference low profile tyres make.

Low profile tyres give sharper responses to steering, etc (ie feel, which is what you seem to consider as part of good handling), but actually reduce feel (which is the other part of your consideration of good handling). Would you sacrifice feel for progression, because that's what a lot of OEMs do I'm afraid.

[EarL]

Good thread, though I don't agree with most of Dino's comments!

For me handling is little to do with grip and corner speed and everything to do with the combination of feel and progression.

I will construct a more detailed reply when I'm not meant to be working

Dom

...says a man with a FWD Integra.

Anyway... I've said it before, and I'll say it again... You guys should get your heads together and write a book. Excellent! =D>

[MR2Mania]

...says a man with a FWD Integra.

I have to say though, mate, that the Integra is one of the finest fwd setups around, and is a cracking chassis, although I've never driven one.

Anyway... I've said it before, and I'll say it again... You guys should get your heads together and write a book. Excellent! =D>

ROFL!! Collect all my (long-winded) posts, wrap 'em up in a PDF - voila! You've got a book!!

[Speedy]

Definition of 'handling'

"The undefinable quality which encourages the driver to make the best use of all available grip"

Chief vehicle dynamics engineer - Prodrive.

[EarL]

...says a man with a FWD Integra.

I have to say though, mate, that the Integra is one of the finest fwd setups around, and is a cracking chassis, although I've never driven one.

Having driven a couple, I'd have to agree, they are a superb package as a FWD car, but what relevance that has on driving a Mk1 or MkII MR2 on the limit, I'm not entirely sure

[Frustrated Pilot]

cracking thread. If youre going to have a slagging match make it a classy one like this.

Objective and constructive.

=D>

learnt alot.

thanks

[Frustrated Pilot]

forgot to mention .. seen these b4

lol, and the Na may be a little noisy for some. LOL

stick ya ear to my Apexi hayabusa tiff, I'll rev the pants off the motor and watch ya ears bleed!!!!

[MR2Mania]

Definition of 'handling'

"The undefinable quality which encourages the driver to make the best use of all available grip"

Chief vehicle dynamics engineer - Prodrive.

Hmmm, not sure I agree with that, as handling also determines how controllable a car is when grip has been exceeded (again, going back to what Lauren said about racing drivers of the past that used to 4-wheel-drift their machines)

But then again when was the last time that ProDrive won anything?

Here's another definition:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q= ... ling&meta=

Again, I don't agree with that either, because if you look at Motorsport again, a lot of top drivers in rwd cars actually use the fact that the inner front wheel will lift under severe cornering loads, and it means they can actually get tighter into the apex by making that lifted wheel float over the kerb.

But I guess this all goes to show that handling is perceived differently by everyone!

[jonno]

I have been thinking about this all day, then on the drive home something struck me!.

When im driving on track I dont conciously correct any slides, its more intuitive, its almost like I am concentrating on the apex and the general car position and if it slides my brain just deals with it almost instinctively. Obviously the first few laps arnt like that, it takes a while to get into a rythm. I suspect thats why I dont really mind how a car feels to drive, since I dont really find myself "reacting", its almost like I know the car is going to slide before it does and so when it does let go its something I can deal with pretty easily - does that make any sense?

Obviously some cars are easier to drive than others, but I find I cant be quick unless I can predict whats going to happen next. I supposed a better handling and more communicative car might make this easier, but surely once you can predict the behaviour of the car, the communication it gives you isnt so vital anymore?

Im probably talking total toss, but it makes sense in my head

Neil.

[Lauren]

I have been thinking about this all day, then on the drive home something struck me!.

When im driving on track I dont conciously correct any slides, its more intuitive, its almost like I am concentrating on the apex and the general car position and if it slides my brain just deals with it almost instinctively. Obviously the first few laps arnt like that, it takes a while to get into a rythm. I suspect thats why I dont really mind how a car feels to drive, since I dont really find myself "reacting", its almost like I know the car is going to slide before it does and so when it does let go its something I can deal with pretty easily - does that make any sense?

Obviously some cars are easier to drive than others, but I find I cant be quick unless I can predict whats going to happen next. I supposed a better handling and more communicative car might make this easier, but surely once you can predict the behaviour of the car, the communication it gives you isnt so vital anymore?

Im probably talking total toss, but it makes sense in my head

Neil.

Yes you are talking total toss Neil. seriously i do know what you mean, but in order to further your driving skills you need to really understand what you are doing as it helps understanding and also means you are aware of mistakes or areas where improvement is possible. I understand where you at with your driving (i've been at that point), but now you need to work out what you are doing to move things on further, so it becomes a matter of understanding your obvious innate talent and then making the most of it.

The way i see it, when i'm in the zone its like driving in slow motion ie it seems i've got ages to react to any input that is required and it seems so easy. Of course like you say it takes a little while to get into that zone, but once there i can be thinking what i'm going to do the next lap, though this is more key in racecraft really, but obviously it will work in trackwork, so you'll be constantly reviewing your lines, thinking about taking a given corner a slightly different way the next lap etc.

Communication from the car is always vital because without that you are merely guessing.

I don't quite agree with Dino over the handling/grip debate because for me a car starts to show its handling when you are driving within the slip angles of the tyres. If you are below this speed you are experiencing mechanical grip or roadholding. Yes handling is a term used to describe how the car feels but all the time you are well within the limits of grip of a car it merely goes where you point it and things like the throttle do not become a factor until you go beyond the limit of adhesion and get within these slip angles.

This is why i differentiate handling from roadholding. For example if someone says "My car handles like its on rails" then they are simply not going fast enough, pure and simple.

[MR2Mania]

Yes you are talking total toss Neil. seriously i do know what you mean, but in order to further your driving skills you need to really understand what you are doing as it helps understanding and also means you are aware of mistakes or areas where improvement is possible.

This is what I basically said about Neil in an earlier post. I've watched his driving style, and he's doing things totally on intuition without having to think of what the car is doing at any moment. And you're right, for him to improve on his (already very good) current skills, he needs to consciously think and start planning, maybe experimenting with different lines through the corner and how he can best use the weight transfer.

I don't quite agree with Dino over the handling/grip debate because for me a car starts to show its handling when you are driving within the slip angles of the tyres.

Lauren, with all due respect, this is because you don't fully understand the science behind it. Slip angles are still present even when you've exceeded the available grip. And handling *still* applies at this stage, otherwise the person you yourself quoted (ie Fangio) wouldn't have been able to control his car.

If you are below this speed you are experiencing mechanical grip or roadholding. Yes handling is a term used to describe how the car feels but all the time you are well within the limits of grip of a car it merely goes where you point it and things like the throttle do not become a factor until you go beyond the limit of adhesion and get within these slip angles.

Errr, no, it doesn't necessarily go where you're pointing it. This is why you look at the difference between the slip angles of the tyres front and rear, and determine whether you are experiencing understeer, oversteer, or neutral steer.

This is why i differentiate handling from roadholding. For example if someone says "My car handles like its on rails" then they are simply not going fast enough, pure and simple.

On that point, we agree!

[MR2Mania]

Lauren, with all due respect, this is because you don't fully understand the science behind it. Slip angles are still present even when you've exceeded the available grip. And handling *still* applies at this stage, otherwise the person you yourself quoted (ie Fangio) wouldn't have been able to control his car.

Lauren, let me explain this further, in case you think it's an insult.

The majority of drivers will only look at aspects of handling that you can quantify within the levels of grip, as you say. However, a professional racer (and I include *you* in that list too!) also feels the handling when the grip has been overcome, otherwise you wouldn't be able to control any type of drift, whether it be 2 of 4 wheel drift. It's just not so easy for those racers to explain it without understanding the science behind it fully, and not many do (it's really mainly chassis designers that can understand this). And equally, I might understand what's behind it, but may not be able to do it!

In an earlier post you mentioned about weight transfer, and at extreme times like when drifting, this is pretty much all that one can consider when talking about handling. Hence why a well balanced car is much easier to drift.

Basically, nothing defies the laws of physics.

[Lauren]

Lauren, with all due respect, this is because you don't fully understand the science behind it. Slip angles are still present even when you've exceeded the available grip. And handling *still* applies at this stage, otherwise the person you yourself quoted (ie Fangio) wouldn't have been able to control his car.

Lauren, let me explain this further, in case you think it's an insult.

The majority of drivers will only look at aspects of handling that you can quantify within the levels of grip, as you say. However, a professional racer (and I include *you* in that list too!) also feels the handling when the grip has been overcome, otherwise you wouldn't be able to control any type of drift, whether it be 2 of 4 wheel drift. It's just not so easy for those racers to explain it without understanding the science behind it fully, and not many do (it's really mainly chassis designers that can understand this). And equally, I might understand what's behind it, but may not be able to do it!

In an earlier post you mentioned about weight transfer, and at extreme times like when drifting, this is pretty much all that one can consider when talking about handling. Hence why a well balanced car is much easier to drift.

Basically, nothing defies the laws of physics.

Dino i think we are basically agreeing, as you may have misunderstood my point in that the car is really showing its handling attributes once you exceed the limit of grip as this is when under/oversteer attributes will become apparent and we experience the traits of how our car reacts at this point. This is also when of course things like steering the car on the throttle and balancing the car on the throttle come into play. It is when we get to this point that we are able to describe how the car 'handles'.

[BenF]

Well, I was going to reply back to Dino, but the post I was going to reply to was a couple of pages back

A great read - but what I think it at the root of this are different definitions of what is handling and what is grip.

For me, to extract the maximum cornering speed out of a car, you need to have some sliding going on. On Road tyres, the optimum slip angle is ~8-10 degrees for maximum grip from road tyres, but drops off progressively past this. Race slicks are a lot more grippy, but the slip angles they support are much narrower - and beyond those grip drops away dramatically.

The Driver skill comes in where you can read the feedback you're getting and recognise you've reached that - ie the steering goes light, the car may be rolled over slightly, and the car becomes adjustable on the throttle and adjustable between understeer and oversteer depending on your steering, throttle and brake inputs.

The feedback each car gives you can be very different - some may be giving you the 'right' feedback to work this out, others may obscure it - making it more guesswork as to where the limit is, rather than an obvious limit that the driver can drive on/ over/ around.

'Feedback' from the car is what your brain processes to work out where this absolute limit is.

An illustration of this I noticed (OK, mega beardy but hopefully usefull) - is from the a long, constant radius turn at Elvington between the two runways we used at the trackday. From the clip below :

http://www.imoc.co.uk/users/BenF/Elving ... _music.wmv

Save it to your disk and forward to about 1:45 where I'm following a Mk1 (probably Speedy) around the bend. Watch the reflection of his car in my door panel, and listen to the tyres.

In that bend you can see that I'm right on the limit of slip (listen to the tyres) and the slip angles change (note Speedy's car reflection moving around on the door) - I'm making small adjustments all the time to keep to that limit of grip all because I'm reacting to the feedback I'm getting.

Not quite sure where that has got us, but its a demonstration of slip angles, and what I'd call 'handling' from the car, and driver judgement.

Nuff said. Time for some kip