[Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

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hattie86
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:48 pm
Location: exeter

[Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by hattie86 »

Hi all. Im looking at getting my turbo up to around the 500bhp mark, but i cant buy all the parts in one big hit, so i was wondering if you guys could help me in deciding which bits to buy first etc.
im currently having the engine refurbished (i.e. gaskets, seals, serviced etc)
my current list of parts are as follows (any advice on different/better parts is also appreciated)

Piper 272 cams,
Piper Pullies,
1mm over sized valves (from ats)
Piper double valve springs
after market intake manifold (iv heard the stock one can make the middle 2 cylinders run a bit lean),
Tubular exhaust manifold,
Garrett GT3071r turbo,
3 inch dia de-cat downpipe,
Tial MV-R 44mm waistgate,
water to air intercooler,
link g4 xtreme ecu,
link boost solenoid,
76mm throttle body.

the piper website says the cams are for the N/A model, but iv seen videos of turbos with 272 cams?
i thought the throttle body should be 76mm since the intercooler outlet is 76mm.
my exhaust is a 3 inch bore (from the cat backwards),
im also having a stage 4, 6 puc clutch kit installed at the moment to.

there will be other modifications along the way (i.e) bigger brakes, coilovers etc)
thanks in advance guys.
MR2 Rich
Posts: 1582
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:18 pm
Location: Harrogate North Yorkshire

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by MR2 Rich »

You will need forged Pistons before you go for big power if you haven't got them already. :thumleft:
No 2 :(
C35Rob
Posts: 2108
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:14 am
Location: Gateshead

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by C35Rob »

If you're serious about 500bhp then speak to the person you plan on using to build the engine and ask them to spec it for you.

you'll definitely need forged internals, and a 3071 will possibly be a little too small, something like a td06 25g, holset hx35, borgwarner S252 or if you must stay with a garrett then something like a GT3582r would be more suited.

select your turbo, and boost pressure you are going to run then build the rest of the engine around it. picking bits and pieces you've seen work on different set ups will leave you with a mediocre engine.
EX MR2 owner, currently on a '00 Honda CBR600 Follow me on Instagram @c35rob
MR2 Rich
Posts: 1582
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:18 pm
Location: Harrogate North Yorkshire

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by MR2 Rich »

Been hearing very good things about the EFR range of turbos from Borg Warner so might be worth a look? :mrgreen:
No 2 :(
ashley
Posts: 7628
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:08 pm

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by ashley »

hattie86 wrote:Hi all. Im looking at getting my turbo up to around the 500bhp mark, but i cant buy all the parts in one big hit, so i was wondering if you guys could help me in deciding which bits to buy first etc.
im currently having the engine refurbished (i.e. gaskets, seals, serviced etc)
my current list of parts are as follows (any advice on different/better parts is also appreciated)

Piper 272 cams,
Piper Pullies,
1mm over sized valves (from ats)
Piper double valve springs
after market intake manifold (iv heard the stock one can make the middle 2 cylinders run a bit lean),
Tubular exhaust manifold,
Garrett GT3071r turbo,
3 inch dia de-cat downpipe,
Tial MV-R 44mm waistgate,
water to air intercooler,
link g4 xtreme ecu,
link boost solenoid,
76mm throttle body.

the piper website says the cams are for the N/A model, but iv seen videos of turbos with 272 cams?
i thought the throttle body should be 76mm since the intercooler outlet is 76mm.
my exhaust is a 3 inch bore (from the cat backwards),
im also having a stage 4, 6 puc clutch kit installed at the moment to.

there will be other modifications along the way (i.e) bigger brakes, coilovers etc)
thanks in advance guys.


You've got a lot of what you need already- it sounds good!
Forged pistons (and rods if you can afford it) would be a really good idea, try not to go oversize if you can get away with it.
The cams will be fine, although you might want to play with a shorter duration on the exhaust side at some point.
Turbo wise you are too small for 500hp, which turbine housing did you get? I'd have a look at the GTX3071 instead, on a 0.82 housing that should scrape 500hp...if you want more head room consider the GTX3076, or stepping up to a GT35- but it will be more laggy.
Worth a look at the Forced Performance HTA range as well, or as others have said- BorgWarner...
Looking forwards to seeing how you get on...what charge cooler do you have?
kev8611
Posts: 503
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:08 am
Location: Scotland

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by kev8611 »

A GT3071r might be working very hard to give you that sort of power but it all depends on charge temps and supporting mods. As ashley says, atleast consider a 3076 or even a 35 series. They wont have to work as hard therefore they will not be blowing as much hot air as a 3071 and you have some headroom.

What about fuelling? Injectors, pump, fpr and possibly a fuel rail will be needed

Clutch, inner cv's aswell
mr2magic
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:33 am
Location: Hannover, Germany

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by mr2magic »

Lumpy cams and oversized valves aren't needed for anything in that power range unless of course your budget is large enough so that it doesn't bother you? Same goes for adjustable cam pulleys...The net power gain for the amount of money spent on dialling the things in is marginal at best. Enlarged tb is also unneeded. It changes throttle response but doesn't increase power any. Keep the stock manifold if in any way possible - it'll be around long after everything else has rusted away :-)

Other than that....larger frame turbo, uprated fuel system (pump, filter, lines, injectors, rail), forged pistons, cv joints, clutch, possibly separate oil cooler and thermostat..

If I have any further ideas I'll post
kev8611
Posts: 503
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:08 am
Location: Scotland

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by kev8611 »

While on the subject. Anyone have an idea on the standard rev 3 turbo camshafts limits in terms of power?
hattie86
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:48 pm
Location: exeter

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by hattie86 »

thanks, id forgotten to look at pistons and con rods, (which is a school boy error considering i used to put wiseco forged pistons in my mx bike) the other thing that iv thought of on the internals dept is the crank...should i look at beefing that up, if so would the 5sfe crank fit? as iv heard they are a bit of a monster crank.
as for the turbo i meant gt3076r but im currently looking through the turbo manufacturers you guys have mentioned ;) borg warner do some good looking units ;)
unfortunately i havent bought the parts yet, its a shopping list. realistically it will be a couple of months before im in a position to buy everything.
like i say my main concern is getting the engine sound so i have a good base to build onto.
i do have the exhaust and clutch installed and im putting in a steel head gasket.
i havent decided on a particular chargecooler yet as im still playing around with ideas of where to mount it in the bay, but if you know of a good reputable make id be keen to have a look at their range.
as far as injectors go would a set of 800cc top feeds do, or am i looking closer to 1000cc? also i have a walbro 255 fuel pump in already, but iv seen 320 pumps, would that flow enough or am i looking at a twin pump set up? and what would be a good fpr to go with?
the reason i was looking at the cams, valves and pullies is because the mr2 power primer website suggests changing those, and ats racing reckons they found 50 bhp just by playing around with timing cam timing. i would like to keep the stock intake if i can, like i say i heard that it can cause the middle 2 cylinders to run leaner than the outer 2.
what are the advantages of having a staggered cam set up (i.e less duration on exhaust side)?
as for boost pressure i was thinking about 15 psi? but with forged internals i would be able to push some more. one thing i did miss in my first post was arp head bolts.
thanks guys.
az
mr2magic
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:33 am
Location: Hannover, Germany

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by mr2magic »

thanks, id forgotten to look at pistons and con rods, (which is a school boy error considering i used to put wiseco forged pistons in my mx bike) the other thing that iv thought of on the internals dept is the crank...should i look at beefing that up, if so would the 5sfe crank fit? as iv heard they are a bit of a monster crank.

Have you ever seen a 3sgte crank up close? :-) The thing is solid for massive numbers. When doing the build just get it fluxed and polished.


as for the turbo i meant gt3076r but im currently looking through the turbo manufacturers you guys have mentioned ;) borg warner do some good looking units ;)

Efr are awesome because they are such a complete package. I have a 7064 myself.

unfortunately i havent bought the parts yet, its a shopping list. realistically it will be a couple of months before im in a position to buy everything.
like i say my main concern is getting the engine sound so i have a good base to build onto.
i do have the exhaust and clutch installed and im putting in a steel head gasket.
i havent decided on a particular chargecooler yet as im still playing around with ideas of where to mount it in the bay, but if you know of a good reputable make id be keen to have a look at their range.
as far as injectors go would a set of 800cc top feeds do, or am i looking closer to 1000cc?

What injectors you require is based on your target afr's and whether you plan on using e85 or not. I suggest 1000cc (too much is better than too little)

o i have a walbro 255 fuel pump in already, but iv seen 320 pumps, would that flow enough or am i looking at a twin pump set up?

I'm no fan of the walbro and would suggest a larger 320 or larger pump.

what would be a good fpr to go with?

A good 1:1 fpr for can be had from aeromotive or fuelab


the reason i was looking at the cams, valves and pullies is because the mr2 power primer website suggests changing those, and ats racing reckons they found 50 bhp just by playing around with timing cam timing.

Oh..you can gain power with cams etc...but do you want to pay for the time spent getting the last hp out of em? as I said - if your budget is endless do it!

i would like to keep the stock intake if i can, like i say i heard that it can cause the middle 2 cylinders to run leaner than the outer 2.

The problems with cylinder 3 are more due to its placement within the cooling system and less due to the manifold but I'm not sure whether the stock can actually flow enough For 500..


what are the advantages of having a staggered cam set up (i.e less duration on exhaust side)?

Cam theory.....uuurrghh
Last edited by mr2magic on Mon May 04, 2015 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MR2 Rich
Posts: 1582
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:18 pm
Location: Harrogate North Yorkshire

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by MR2 Rich »

I wouldn't bother with upgrading the standard crank as it is forged in the 3S block, there are some big big power builds that use it without failure. :thumleft:
No 2 :(
ashley
Posts: 7628
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:08 pm

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by ashley »

hattie86 wrote:thanks, id forgotten to look at pistons and con rods, (which is a school boy error considering i used to put wiseco forged pistons in my mx bike) the other thing that iv thought of on the internals dept is the crank...should i look at beefing that up, if so would the 5sfe crank fit? as iv heard they are a bit of a monster crank.


If you do use Wiseco's be very careful about the compression ratio you choose. I'll not go into detail here cos it will turn into an argument, but if I was you I would be looking for 8.0:1.0 or 8.5:1.0 compression pistons...check out CP.

The 5S crank does fit, and this gives you an increased benefit of 2.2l capacity...not a lot of difference, but every little helps. As for cranks strength- the stock cranks are already forged, so no need to do anything other than balancing.

If ou do decide to go down the 5S route, then look into using the block as well- significantly stronger than the 3S blocks, which is nice.

hattie86 wrote:as for the turbo i meant gt3076r but im currently looking through the turbo manufacturers you guys have mentioned ;) borg warner do some good looking units ;)


To be honest- you'll still be pushing the GT3076 to hit 500hp, and you'll need to be on the largest turbine housing. Maybe bin some of your other plans (oversize valves for example) and use the extra cash for a GTX turbo, an HTA turbo, or a BW unit?

hattie86 wrote:
as far as injectors go would a set of 800cc top feeds do, or am i looking closer to 1000cc? also i have a walbro 255 fuel pump in already, but iv seen 320 pumps, would that flow enough or am i looking at a twin pump set up? and what would be a good fpr to go with?


I would go with a larger turbo, and 1000cc injectors- that gives you head room for more development (which you'll want!), check out Injector dynamics....expensive, but the reports are they idle like stock injectors.
Aeromotive FPR should be on your list, and you'll want to replace your fuel lines: -08 supply ideally.
Twin 255's would work in-tank, but it's a pain fitting them...I've got the 440lph pump as a single, but can't offer advice on how it performs in anger yet...it was a piece of pi$$ to fit though. Be careful where you buy the Walbro pumps- plenty of reports of cheap Chinese copies out there.

hattie86 wrote:
the reason i was looking at the cams, valves and pullies is because the mr2 power primer website suggests changing those, and ats racing reckons they found 50 bhp just by playing around with timing cam timing. i would like to keep the stock intake if i can, like i say i heard that it can cause the middle 2 cylinders to run leaner than the outer 2.
what are the advantages of having a staggered cam set up (i.e less duration on exhaust side)?


Yeah- at the very least you'll want cam pulleys in my opinion, but you do need to be prepared to put the time in on the dyno to experiment with them...there are definitely gains to be had though. I tweaked my inlet and exhaust timing on the dyno by a few degrees and saw an instant 80hp increase...we couldn't believe it!

I have heard the concerns over the design of the stock inlet manifold, and
apparently it's been proven on the flow bench that it does favour 2 & 3 helping them run lean. Of course don't forget they are in the middle as well, so tend to run hotter anyway, but most experience mappers will know this and may chose to compensate with fueling. For what you are doing I would look at a side feed, it will help you fit your charge cooler as well without long U-bend boost pipes.

hattie86 wrote:as for boost pressure i was thinking about 15 psi? but with forged internals i would be able to push some more. one thing i did miss in my first post was arp head bolts.
thanks guys.
az


For 500hp on a GT30 turbo you'll be running more like double that boost :wink:

Sounds like it would definitely be worth you taking some advice from an experienced engine builder, plenty of specialists on here...do some searching and research, then decide how you want to do it....then, and only then, start to spend your cash....good luck!!
hattie86
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:48 pm
Location: exeter

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by hattie86 »

ok well thats garrett scrapped, as for housing and trims etc...i might aswell be giving a lecture on brain surgery.
would your 7064 unit be ideal for my build?
i will be using 98 octane pump fuel. i have read that the ideal afr for pump fuel is 11.5:1? but in any case, it would seem 1000cc injectors are the way. i do like the sound of a dual pump setup, but though they would be a pain in the rectum to fit. is the 440 an in tank pump? ill have a look at those FPRs.
i was going to go for 8.5:1 compression but im guessing that a slightly lower compression would reduce stress at higher boost?
i will leave the crank then, although the idea of a 2.2l is a nice thought, i think it would be alot of work (different length con rods etc) plus there is the problem of sourcing one. i would love to buy the ats 2.3 stoker short block, but the cost of importing it would be astronomical.
looks like ill be scrapping the valves too, at least for now, and investing cash in other mods. my only worry with that is would the stock valves be ok with the cams? (although my budget isnt massive, i would like the cams and pullies, even if its to prep for further development).
if i did change the intake it would be a side feed one as i like the idea of putting the charge cooler where the fuse box is, obviously this would result in relocating the fuse box, which in turn would result in an engine bay tuck, which would be rude not to if im putting all this work and money into the engine bay. :wink:
i will be speaking to engine builders and i was hoping to find some mr2 specialist engine builders on here, i will also be speaking to suppliers before i order parts. at the moment its all still in the planning stages, but i really do appreciate the input and advice you have all already given me! :)
thanks az
mr2magic
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Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:33 am
Location: Hannover, Germany

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by mr2magic »

The 7064 is good for 550 hp and perfectly matched to the 3sgte. You can only go ewg because iwg means a bespoke exhaust manifold which in turn means lots of money. The bosch 044 is meant as an inline pump but can be dropped in tank.
ashley
Posts: 7628
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:08 pm

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by ashley »

mr2magic wrote:The 7064 is good for 550 hp and perfectly matched to the 3sgte. You can only go ewg because iwg means a bespoke exhaust manifold which in turn means lots of money. The bosch 044 is meant as an inline pump but can be dropped in tank.


You got any dyno plots of it on your engine? Would be very interested to see how it goes...
mr2magic
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:33 am
Location: Hannover, Germany

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by mr2magic »

Unfortunately not Ashley. At the moment I'm still in the process of having a custom exhaust manifold fabricated because I went iwg. My statement as it is is based on the borg warner match bot, which I spent a good fortnight playing with. Now you could argue, that there is a lot of assumption involved, and that is true with regards to the ve at a given rpm but i erred on the side of caution just to be sure ;-) I also know the gen2 head flows extremely well at higher rpm.
bobhatton
Posts: 3351
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:34 pm
Location: Bodmin Cornwall

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by bobhatton »

hattie86 wrote:Hi all. Im looking at getting my turbo up to around the 500bhp mark, but i cant buy all the parts in one big hit, so i was wondering if you guys could help me in deciding which bits to buy first etc.
im currently having the engine refurbished (i.e. gaskets, seals, serviced etc)
my current list of parts are as follows (any advice on different/better parts is also appreciated)

Piper 272 cams,
Piper Pullies,
1mm over sized valves (from ats)
Piper double valve springs
after market intake manifold (iv heard the stock one can make the middle 2 cylinders run a bit lean),
Tubular exhaust manifold,
Garrett GT3071r turbo,
3 inch dia de-cat downpipe,
Tial MV-R 44mm waistgate,
water to air intercooler,
link g4 xtreme ecu,
link boost solenoid,
76mm throttle body.

the piper website says the cams are for the N/A model, but iv seen videos of turbos with 272 cams?
i thought the throttle body should be 76mm since the intercooler outlet is 76mm.
my exhaust is a 3 inch bore (from the cat backwards),
im also having a stage 4, 6 puc clutch kit installed at the moment to.

there will be other modifications along the way (i.e) bigger brakes, coilovers etc)
thanks in advance guys.


Come down and see us one weekend, we are only in Bodmin Cornwall so only a hours drive away.

We have a 500hp engine here and building a 1200 hp one so can show you all the parts etc including manifolds, pistons, turbos etc.
Designer for turbo set ups on F1 cars, and Nitrous Oxide Systems of the USA in the 80s
ashley
Posts: 7628
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:08 pm

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by ashley »

mr2magic wrote:Unfortunately not Ashley. At the moment I'm still in the process of having a custom exhaust manifold fabricated because I went iwg. My statement as it is is based on the borg warner match bot, which I spent a good fortnight playing with. Now you could argue, that there is a lot of assumption involved, and that is true with regards to the ve at a given rpm but i erred on the side of caution just to be sure ;-) I also know the gen2 head flows extremely well at higher rpm.


Cool- very interested to see how you do, been waiting ages to see some real data on how the BW does on a 3S :thumleft:
mr2magic
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:33 am
Location: Hannover, Germany

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by mr2magic »

There's lots of info on EFR's on the 3SGTE if you're interested in the B1 frame turbos......the B2 frame especially the 7064 haven't been used much so far primerily due to the cost of fabricating the manifold. Although $1600 for a hand made racerx manifold is a bargain if you ask me (no, jeffs not making mine). If a B2 frame was used, it tended to be a big mutha :-)
hattie86
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:48 pm
Location: exeter

Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] big power gains advice please

Post by hattie86 »

bobhatton wrote:

Come down and see us one weekend, we are only in Bodmin Cornwall so only a hours drive away.

We have a 500hp engine here and building a 1200 hp one so can show you all the parts etc including manifolds, pistons, turbos etc.


yeah that sounds awesome!! :) we will have to sort that out.

yeah i was looking at the racerx manifold, it looks amazing :)

well i have alot to be thinking about now and planning. cant thank you guys enough for your info!!
az
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