Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Discussion and technical advice the SW20 MR2. 3S-GTE, 3S-GE, 3S-FE etc
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Ryan S
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by Ryan S »

mr2magic wrote:The cylinder head on a gen3 is not better per se. The only available flow bench numbers ever presented prove (if you can use the word) that the gen2 head flows more than the gen3.

The gen3 is a better package though. The ct20b, map based injection, higher lift higher duration cams, shim under bucket and a plethora of small tweaks all combine to produce more power over the whole rev band.


Deffo man, If you are looking at simple bolt on mods then the rev3 is the way to go, If you're planning on 350bhp+ then it makes no real difference, Having had both a rev2 and a rev3 I prefer the rev3 but having said that, I was never ever bored of the power of the rev2, I have said a few times the power delivery is more savage (or at least feels like it) on the rev2!
DottySkee
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by DottySkee »

sheppy wrote:
A lot of folk maintain that the rev2 block is cast using better material and is slightly thicker around the water pump so less prone to cracking, However people have had plenty success with rev3s also. :thumleft:


The rev 2 engine I've taken out of my car has been killed by a cracked block at the water pump so rev 2s do get it too. I just changed the engine for a rebuilt and sleeved/forged rev 3 engine.
masterbateson
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by masterbateson »

I hope you cut and pasted all that from somewhere sheppy!

If not you had better go and have a rest, maybe with a wee swally.

ta for that V comprehensive.
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by Ryan S »

I did mate, there is a much more comprehensive one I was looking for but I could 't find it, i'm sure I read the pistons are different too as well as lots of other internal parts, as for rev2 blocks cracking that is absolutely true, blocks have also been known to crack at any level of power too, not just over 400bhp or whatever, on the other hand rev3 blocks have been known to run in excess of 600bhp without issue, anyone remeber Chris' old car? 635bhp on a rev3 block after he had issues with rev2 blocks I believe. :thumleft:
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by Ryan S »

JE pistons and not a lot else I believe he had. Stock head too if I remember right :-k
mr2magic
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by mr2magic »

Ahhh the old block cracking story....I always have to laugh at that a bit because it only really happens when pushing the power limits on untreated blocks of both gens. To actually take the few cases and try and draw a conclusion on whether the block is better or worse is pointless. Any one of these cases could be due to a bad casting, bad install of head studs/bolts, detonation, wrong piston clearance....etc.

I've seen 600 on a gen3 and 600 on a gen2.....but then again I've seen 750 on a 5s block ;-) There are not enough hard facts and certainly nothing statistically relevant to say the naked block or head of any one gen is intrinsically better than the other.

But that's just my take ;-)
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by Ryan S »

Much the same as my take on it man, as I said it could happen at any power level on any gen, Chris' car from what I remember was a totally untreated rev3 block. It's been a while but what I remember he chucked a tonne of cash treating blocks in his first builds and they cracked, so rather spend all the cash again he stuck a rev3 block in with nothing done to it (please anyone correct me on this if i'm wrong) and it outlived any of the other he used. Just out of interest what's your theory on why they crack? Trickster on here believes it's due to the thermostat letting in the colder coolant, One of his posts from yeeeears ago he states he'll never run a thermostat from now on, I tend to agree with his logic on it :thumleft:
MR2 Rich
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by MR2 Rich »

Any 3S block can crack. The early ones is usually around the waterpump and the Rev3's like to crack between the cylinders (from memory the middle 2 with the water jacket). I think I would go ultra safe even with moderate power and go for a 5S block. :thumleft:

Thanks for all the advice.

Rich :thumleft:
No 2 :(
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by Ryan S »

The caldina blocks are hugely strong as well, they are much beefier in comparison although they are hard to get, I'm half heartedly looking for a 5s while doing my build as ultimately it's going to fail at some point. I'm actually pretty keen on doing a k20 swap as the engine mount kit and bellhousing are apparently readily available although at a cost I suspect.
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by rev3turbo »

im using a rev 5 NA block and drilled/tapped for an oil feed... nice and thick around the water pump area.. ive had one crack there myself.
mr2magic
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by mr2magic »

You had to ask didn't you XD

I have a couple of ideas on this but don't quote me!
1) hardly anyone bothers to clean the threads in the block when installing arp studs (much the same as almost no one measures the stud after seating them to make sure they all have the same height). This causes a difference in clamping force and a difference in torque one the block
2) right behind the water pump (on both gens) there is a pocket. This pocket traps coolant which isn't being moved by the pump. This coolant starts to boil and creates a hot spot causing the cracks.
3)thermostat as you already noted.

sheppy wrote:Much the same as my take on it man, as I said it could happen at any power level on any gen, Chris' car from what I remember was a totally untreated rev3 block. It's been a while but what I remember he chucked a tonne of cash treating blocks in his first builds and they cracked, so rather spend all the cash again he stuck a rev3 block in with nothing done to it (please anyone correct me on this if i'm wrong) and it outlived any of the other he used. Just out of interest what's your theory on why they crack? Trickster on here believes it's due to the thermostat letting in the colder coolant, One of his posts from yeeeears ago he states he'll never run a thermostat from now on, I tend to agree with his logic on it :thumleft:
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by Ryan S »

rev3turbo wrote:im using a rev 5 NA block and drilled/tapped for an oil feed... nice and thick around the water pump area.. ive had one crack there myself.


You've had the N/A block crack around the water pump too you mean?
rev3turbo
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by rev3turbo »

sheppy wrote:
rev3turbo wrote:im using a rev 5 NA block and drilled/tapped for an oil feed... nice and thick around the water pump area.. ive had one crack there myself.


You've had the N/A block crack around the water pump too you mean?


a rev2 block.. not the rev5
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by Ryan S »

mr2magic wrote:You had to ask didn't you XD

I have a couple of ideas on this but don't quote me!
1) hardly anyone bothers to clean the threads in the block when installing arp studs (much the same as almost no one measures the stud after seating them to make sure they all have the same height). This causes a difference in clamping force and a difference in torque one the block
2) right behind the water pump (on both gens) there is a pocket. This pocket traps coolant which isn't being moved by the pump. This coolant starts to boil and creates a hot spot causing the cracks.
3)thermostat as you already noted.

sheppy wrote:Much the same as my take on it man, as I said it could happen at any power level on any gen, Chris' car from what I remember was a totally untreated rev3 block. It's been a while but what I remember he chucked a tonne of cash treating blocks in his first builds and they cracked, so rather spend all the cash again he stuck a rev3 block in with nothing done to it (please anyone correct me on this if i'm wrong) and it outlived any of the other he used. Just out of interest what's your theory on why they crack? Trickster on here believes it's due to the thermostat letting in the colder coolant, One of his posts from yeeeears ago he states he'll never run a thermostat from now on, I tend to agree with his logic on it :thumleft:


Excuse the quote train....

Funny you should mention the studs, I've read that recently on some mad drag car, the guy actually had custom bolts made that went all the way through the block! I've read another fix is to install thicker studs but taking metal away from the block worries me, the logic behind it was to do with the force lifting the head.
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by mr2magic »

Ok...I maybe way out of my depth here but here goes:

If you take two pieces of material of an arbitrary thickness and clamp these together with a standard bolt and nut - where are the maximum forces at work? With a bolt and nut I think the maximum force is directly underneath the head of the bolt and underneath the nut.

Now..when applying such loads it's a good idea to spread the stress over a large area.....eg. 100 pounds of pressure on 1 square inch is more stress that 100 pounds of pressure on 10 square inches..but how can we spread the force when clamping parts? Well if I have threads in the parts then the force will be spread over the surface area of the threads which is a multiple of the area underneath the bolt/nut. The problem is I can only screw into one piece of material..I can't screw into both and still generate a clamping force. So....In modern engines the clamp load is distributed in the block via the threads and concentrated in the head under the bolt/nut.


Now taking the drag racer as an example: if I bore all the way through and thread a nut on the other end I haven't won much...The load is now directly underneath the head of the bolt and underneath the bolt at the other end...

If I instead use a girdle that uses 'n' bolts to press some kind of frame onto the head and at the same time press a frame against the bottom of the block, then I have a real gain in structural integrity.

On a side not you cannot bore a gen2/gen3 through completely. I'm pretty sure the threads for the bolt for cylinder 4 intake side ate outside of the normal block.
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by Ryan S »

Very interesting man, I could be wrong about going all the way through, I'll try and find the link, From what I remember he had tried a few set ups, also from what I read it sounded like budget was no issue whatsoever, I think he did it professionally, he just wanted to make the 3s block work. It was an interesting read but I could well be mistaken. Another documented work around is to sleeve the block but it's expensive and I've not read anything good or bad about it other than from the company that makes the sleeves and they are hardly gonna say that they don't work :) tested up to 750bhp and 50psi of boost or some equally ridiculous claims!! I have read of nobody at all running sleeves with any success.
masterbateson
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by masterbateson »

Isnt this a little bit weird from sheppys list

lower compression ratio


I would have thought you would have wanted higher compression for more power? :?: :?

And this

(much the same as almost no one measures the stud after seating them to make sure they all have the same height)


As i havent had a mr2 engine yet and as a result not seen head off :lol:

Is the above refering to some sort of locating studs?on the block to aid in positioning and keeping the head still?

And seeing as we are on about Heads

How do the 2's fair re porosity of the head?
And how do they tolerate skimming?
Can you skim a 2 head more than once? and whats the most skims anyone has got away with?

Also seeing as i have a dremel and a die grinder and have done this b4, wondering if you boys when you have the head off, have cleaned up/opened up the water ways on the head?
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by mr2magic »

You want to be careful with compression ratio (im assuming that's what you mean, not compression) on an fi motor. Although the days of ultra low compression ratios for turbo and sc motors are long gone it is still a valid rule of thumb, that fi motors have a lower cr than na. That being said a cr of 9:1 or in some cases even 10:1 is perfectly okay. I think the vw tfsi motors had 11:1 even!

What I meant with studs was that most people when they upgrade throw out the standard tty head bolts and replace them with arp head studs. Unlike the stock bolts the studs actually bottom out in the thread. If the thread is not clean which is always the case due to coked oil the stud doesn't bottom out properly. If the head is then torqued down the different depths of the studs in the block cause an uneven load distribution.

Whether this is really a cause for concern is open to debate :-) I may have to get a friend of mine to do a bit of FEA on it....
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by Ryan S »

Compression ratios for these engines are based on 20odd year old ecus, I'll not get into my thoughts on it on here for fear of all hell breaking loose, just go by the info in the above post....

I see what you're saying about the studs but surely acid dipping would eliminate any issue with stud depth?
masterbateson
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Re: Rev2's vs Rev3's?

Post by masterbateson »

Ah studs = better head bolts! :!: :idea: :lol:

Sooo, if they are screwed down how do you measure them?

Is there any need to measure, if all your head bolts/studs have been torqued down to the same and correct setting?
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