Excellent information on tuning 3S-GE engine

[synXero]

http://www.roadandtrack.net.au/images/s ... engine.pdf

So glad someone looks into these things!

[jkracing]

I've been trying to find this for months! great find!

[glimited]

Epic find. I'll be having a read through this now. Need more power, no $$ for turbo!

[synXero]

I'm afraid it doesn't contain any answers for tuning N/As without $

[ashley]

That is indeed an excellent guide, I remember finding and reading it a few years ago....then it dawned on me why most people don't tune the 3SGE, but go forced induction instead...it is a fantastic demonstration of how much money you have to spend on an NA to make big power

[synXero]

The point really is, the only reason we say that is because it's so easy to do the turbo tuning instead.

If you look at guys who have similar cars with that option removed, they just have to spend the bucks. Let's say an Integra. There's a lot of research and documentation and accordingly guides covering how to tune an already well tuned N/A engine.

I've been a member of the Type R Owners club for 3 years plus now. I know of a few FN2 Civics that have made it from 200bhp to 240bhp. I refuse to believe the same couldn't be done to the 3SGE, it's just it never is because it's easier not to!

[ashley]

Don't get me wrong, I'm ALL for NA tuning- I love it, prefer it to forced induction to drive as well. And of course it can be done on the 3SGE, and has been done many times...it's just not an economical option vs the turbo route when you compare gain in bhp per £.

NA tuning for the 3SGE is no different to any other engine, mods to get more fuel/ air through it, and mods to make it rev higher...simples

I'd love to do a full on 3S NA build, but simply can't justify the cost at the moment, maybe one day...

For the sake of entertainment, if I did I'd be looking at something like:

- lightened knife edged crank
- possibly a girdle to help deal with upped rev's
- electronic oil & water pumps
- dry sump and oil cooler
- forged rods
- ARP rod bolts
- high compression forged pistons
- possibly an over bored block?
- ported, polished head- preferably a beams head
- big valves
- shimless buckets
- lairy cams with suitable dual springs to deal with high revs, obviously verniers to dial them in
- not convinced on itb's or not, would need to be considered
- COP coversion to help deal with upped revs
- Programable ECU
- Upgraded fuel pump / FPR / fuel lines

And probably a load more as well....a good way to blow £10k+

[synXero]

I'd love to see someone actually cost up work for performance improvement. It'd be nice to have figures for us NA nuts instead of speculation and writing off the idea without proper research.

Is there advice on tuning a Beams? I had heard with breathing mods and lightening, a beams made 5.9s to 60, @215bhp. Perhaps a bit word of mouthy but interesting?

I feel there should definitely be an evidence based NA tuning guide. Do we know of any particular tuned NAs??

[ashley]

Have a chat with HurleyRacing on here mate, he's building some full on NA engines

[Super_red]

When I tunned my Rover VVC engine I worked out the costs.

The first 20bhp over stock cost me £10 per BHP, this was an uprated exhaust cam and a larger TB. This took me from 143bhp to 165bhp.

The next 20bhp would have cost me £1000 or £50 per bhp, this would have been a ported head and vernier on the exhaust cam and a decent 4-2-1 manifold. This would have netted 180-185bhp

The next 20bhp would have cost 2k, £100 per bhp, this would have been a rebuilt bottom end and valve train to make it rev higher and give more displacement, and a custom ECU. Still stock cranks and rods and plenum inlet.

Even then 200bhp would not be assured on the stock cams and a VVC delete might have been required along with ITB's. If this route was needed then the resuse of the stock rods would have been a bad choice so ad another engine rebuild bringing the last 20bhp to 4k or £200 per bhp.

I stopped at 165bhp. Even that first 20bhp cost more than it would on a turbo car I am sure. All of these costs were to DIY all the work myself apart from the head porting. No mapping was costed for but would of course be needed.

All in I was looking at £5k+ for a 200bhp 1.9!

[Loque]

Cheers, great find.

[mk2mattw]

I spent loads on tuning my old Na-ported heads,hks valve springs,piper cams,vernier pulleys,fgk manifold,jun flywheel-went really well sounded fantastic!

However it cost a fortune to do so now going down the v6 route:) would say to anyone doing Na tuning that anymore than the exhaust and intake mods is a financial money pit-cams cost £450 alone!

[synXero]

It's expensive in relative terms, yeah, but for the result you get it's brilliant, no?

200 from an NA MR2, i.e. the Beams car, is just excellent. I haven't looked into tuning the Beams at all (maybe I will now I've sorted myself one!) but if you upped that to 220, 240, it would be an absolute stormer of a car.

Turbos are great but NA power is just... More fun. Queue M5 comparison example.

What I'm saying is, yes it's expensive... But the cars are worth it. The EP3 guys for example, have very little choice but to do that. You get plenty of great tuning out of the K20 engine, and yeah it's a pricey business for them for sure but great results!

[alanmr2turbo]

i dont think the reason why people fit the turbo engine for power is just for down to the easy route.

People who are looking for power will not even consider spending £10k on a N/A engine just to bring it up to the standard spec of a REV3 tubby engine, when £10k work on a Tubby engine would get you around 450-500 bhp

It's a no brainer

[Al-sw20]

Turbos are great but NA power is just... More fun. Queue M5 comparison example.

Not sure how you compare a torque monster 5 litre v8 with a peaky 2 litre 4 pot?

Especially once you have tuned the 4 pot to rev to 10k, it will be an absolute dog under 5000rpm.

[Rogue]

It's less about the difficulty and more about the expense. Here's one we did for a Celica:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2NUBzYCK_A

If memory serves it made about 220bhp. The same budget would have made 400bhp+ out of a turbo.

It all depends on what you want out of an engine - I agree with Ashley about n/a power delivery but I like the having lots of power and torque as well. That's why a larger capacity supercharged engine is doing it for me right now.

[synXero]

Turbos are great but NA power is just... More fun. Queue M5 comparison example.

Not sure how you compare a torque monster 5 litre v8 with a peaky 2 litre 4 pot?

Especially once you have tuned the 4 pot to rev to 10k, it will be an absolute dog under 5000rpm.

I was referring to the much acclaimed M5 previous gen with the NA engine versus the newer turbo lump. Lots of qualitative things like better sound, drive satisfaction etc... Tangent anyway.

Of course it's cheaper to get more power out of a turbo, it's just a shame that in the MR2 community the first response to every thread about "how do I tune my N/A," is, "Don't, it's too expensive." Rather than, "Here's how." I know it's a tiny semantics thing and perhaps best to tell people how it is. Still, it just seems a shame. If more people did it, it wouldn't be such an expensive venture.

I wonder if the same thing happens on Supra fora? 300ZX fora? Or for any other car with a turbo and non turbo variant?

[toxo]

I wonder if the same thing happens on Supra fora?

Yes. Although they can at least slap a turbo on their NA engines without them blowing up

[Al-sw20]

Turbos are great but NA power is just... More fun. Queue M5 comparison example.

Not sure how you compare a torque monster 5 litre v8 with a peaky 2 litre 4 pot?

Especially once you have tuned the 4 pot to rev to 10k, it will be an absolute dog under 5000rpm.

I was referring to the much acclaimed M5 previous gen with the NA engine versus the newer turbo lump

So was I

If you want to make mad power n/a fit a Honda K20A engine.

[synXero]

Pretty sure the M5 doesn't have a two litre 4 cylinder engine...

The E60 has an 500/520 5L V10 N/A engine; the F10 is a 560/502 4.4L V8 twin turbo. I don't follow your retort?

Forgive me if I'm totally missing out on what you're saying!

I think the K20 or maybe B18 in an MR2 would be interesting - they do it in Lotus after all - are there any examples I can read about/watch??