[Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

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Wingers
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[Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by Wingers »

I've just got back from Surrey Rolling Road.

It was the first dyno session for my new engine build and I managed to tweek the fuel and add a couple of degrees of ignition to get the following results:

Power & Torque:
Image

AFR:
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb30 ... CF4902.jpg

Power & Boost:
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb30 ... CF4913.jpg

Power & Torque at the wheels:
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb30 ... CF4917.jpg


It's still very early days as there's a lot more to do before it's ready but I was pleased to get 272bhp at this stage. Especially considering it's running less than 0.7bar boost and I've done the whole build (and map) myself :)

Wingers
Munnsy
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by Munnsy »

you kept that quiet [-X lol

Good figures there james, car is going to be an absolute animal to drive once setup completely.

So whats the next stage for you and the car??

dave :thumleft:
Nick86
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by Nick86 »

what modficiations you done?

and how much did you get charged for the RR?
Wingers
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by Wingers »

Well I want to have a look over the map this week. The changes we made today were mainly block changes that affected quite a large number of cells so I've now got the potential for some steep changes where the block selections ended. I'll smooth those out and see how the fuelling works out over the next week or so. Then it's a case of fit some EGT sensors and a boost solonoid and get it back on the dyno.

I also seem to have a bit of a problem with my lambda sensor as it's reading a richer than the one from the dyno. The engine performance seems to corrolate better with the dyno one which means I'm a bit suspicious of my reading now.

Wingers
Wingers
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by Wingers »

Nick86 wrote:what modficiations you done?

and how much did you get charged for the RR?


The dyno costs £65 per hour which is very reasonable given what some of the other RRs are trying to charge! Charlie is a really nice guy too and only too happy to help so I'd happily recommend SRR for anyone who wants a power run and/or mapping session...

As for my mods, pretty much everything lol.
What springs to mind is:

1000cc injectors
top feed Wolfkatz fuel rail
twin external Walbro HP fuel pumps
264 high-lift HKS cams
+1mm ferrera valves
shimless bucket conversion
GT3076R turbo with external wastegate
forged internals
Link G3 ECU

I've got a complete list in my garage on a different forum but given the latest statements on here I'd best not name which one.

This setup isn't really going to start working properly until I get the boost up to well over 1.5 bar so for now I've probably got the most expensive 270bhp mr2 in the world lol.

:thumleft:

Wingers
mr2toby
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by mr2toby »

Hey

Did you build the engine yourself?
Wingers
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by Wingers »

Well I was planning to build one from the very bottom up but then sourced one that was already part built. It was the engine from EarL's "Red Beast" and it had the crank/rods/pistons all done and the head assembled. I did the rest though so fitted cams, dressed the engine, wred in the new ECU and then did the engine change myself. I guess it's not quite "built by me" but I'm still pretty pleased to have got this far with it :)

Wingers
greeny
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by greeny »

Congrats :thumleft:

Looking forward to the results when you wind the wick up next :clap:
TOTB 2010 Rwd top speed, 1/4 and shootout winner.
10.7@142 on R888 street tyres, 10.3@134mph on slicks,
9's on slicks to come, with a clean full throttle pass! Goal of 0-150mph in a 1/4 of a mile....
JJ
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by JJ »

:thumleft: Looks great ! Good effort and well done.

If any influential comments, get an EGT fitted so you can see if leaning that fuelling off has any adverse effects..... Just on that, does look a tad on the lean side under load looking at the graph ... ( at that low boost )

My comments comes from experience, okay my setup perhaps differs a little, but similar principal.

Under good a load - 1.4 / 1.5 bar... my afr's were around 11 - 11.5 which is fine.. but i did a hard track day and one of my wastegate nozzles popped off... so was gunning it around at 0.8 bar...

I had head gasket problems back end of last year after 8 month old build ... combination of being unaware of a rad leak and possibly high in cylinder temps, anyway.. upon pulling the head off.. I found hot spots on the 2 middle bores.. which was noticable on the polished head surface in the cumbustion side too. Being anal, I pulled the 2 pistons out for close inspection and found one of them to start developing a trace crack around the valve recess, this all from the heat.

Had this crack developed more, the deformation of the piston crown would have parted and abliterated the piston / head / cylinder / possibly crank damage.

Replaced them, stuck it together and richened it up at the low boosting area. Also included an EGT where previously I'd just work around the wideband. Due to this mental scaring, I tune the engine very rich now where the EGT's have never exceeded 750 degrees C ! :thumleft:

So my tip is, if you're going to belt about at the low boost setting, stick more fuel in otherwise can lead into a labour intensive / costly exercise to rectifying it.

:D
|| S256SX Airwerks Powered MR2 Turbo || V10 BMW M5 ||
jimGTS
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by jimGTS »

That is surely WAY to lean for a turbo car! Even with low boost.

Good job putting it together yourself. But I'd see which afr to believe, the dynos or yours.

Suprsied by the lack of torque?

Either way look forward to some more boost!
Wingers
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by Wingers »

Yeah – the top end is leaner than I’d planned. That’s a result of the quick changes that were made on the day so some cells got missed. I’m going to sort out the fuelling based on the cells that did get set and go from there.

I spent a fair amount of time getting a target fuel map set up which is much more in line with the suggestions on here.
It varies depending on speed and MAP but as a rough guide it’s along these lines:
14:1 up to 20kPa boost
13:1 over 20kPa
12:1 over 40kPa
11.5:1 over 100kPa
11:1 over 150kPa

In particular the very high boost stuff will be defined by EGTs but as a first guess, this is roughly where I wanted to be. I’ve also got meth injection to mix up the requirements but that’s not going in just yet…

My lambda sensor must be getting on for 18months old now and the general engine performance/response was more in line with the dyno readings than mine but there wasn’t a huge difference between the two. For now I’m going to assume that the dyno sensor was accurate and I’ll sort the map out based on that. If I can I’m going to replace my sensor (or at least give it a fresh calibration) and see what that does.

As for the lack of torque – I wasn’t expecting wonders with a turbo that size but was also a bit surprised by how much had dropped off. I had a quick look but nothing much seemed to be forthcoming so I left it there for now. I’ll look into it a bit more in the future but want to get the overall fuel map sorted first.
Safety first, Power second, Driveablility last. :)

Wingers
Ryan.g
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by Ryan.g »

Way too lean dude!

Your EGTS will be way over 950c setup like that espically if on a cast manifold still.

Looks quite retarded also by looking at the curve which wont help with the EGTS also.

I would suggest mate getting a mapper to setup the car with you and letting you listen to the cans at the same time and then experimenting after so you always have a good map to go back too.

This is what i do with alot of people who want to get involved.

Its the way JJ and SteveB have done it and they have alot of confidence now. Bit too much with crazy JJ

Ryan
Wingers
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by Wingers »

Yeah I know the fueling was still off but I wasn't looking to get it all sorted in one hour. I think I've gathered the information I need to put together a much better fuel map now though and have a few other tasks to get on with too.
The lean mixture came from the fact that I'd set the fueling based on my wideband and it seems that that's left the whole map about a ratio leaner than planned.
I know what mixtures I want though, so using the test data I got from the first session I'll get on with creating a new fuel map and see how that works out when I get back to SRR. I'm gonna try to get back on the rollers the week after next and hopefully spend a bit longer to get the fuelling sorted properly and then move onto the ignition.

Unfortunately I didn't have the chance to fit the EGT sensors before yesterday's run but they'll be going in before the next session. I didn't really want to mess with the ignition before having those in as I know that could all go horribly wrong with a few careless tweeks - especially since I don't have the experience of what kind of numbers "look wrong".
Overall it's the ignition that I'm gonna find harder to sort out as despite spending hours researching det, temp limits etc., I don't have a good feeling for what numbers usually work well so am starting from a pretty much unknown map. That's something where there's no substitute for a good tuners experience and I appreciate that that comes at a price.

I'd be interested to see what you think of it if you're around next time I'm running. Don't expect to be too impressed just yet though lol.

I appreciate the feedback though - it's good to know that there are a few experts out there keeping an eye on us amateurs :D

Wingers
JJ
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by JJ »

Bit too much with crazy JJ


Crazy ? or just thinking outside the box !! :wink: :thumleft:
|| S256SX Airwerks Powered MR2 Turbo || V10 BMW M5 ||
JJ
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by JJ »

I appreciate the feedback though - it's good to know that there are a few experts out there keeping an eye on us amateurs


Wingers.. you dont sound amature to me... :thumleft: I've found its a refining process.. even the base map has big pockets in it when sticking different cams in it / compression / turbo differences.... its kinda what you expect anyway...which makes light load driving almost a nightmare for smoothness.

I will strongly advise though... I understand you've give it a thump already.. but the EGT's wont just go up over a couple of stabs of the throttle.. it'll do it instantly... so you cannot go with the view of I'll get it right next time....

With the same thoughts on your ignition of leaving it pretty much retarded... you should have taken this view with the fuelling and placed a considerable amount in at first, then start the leaning process.

Please dont take my comments the wrong way, its all constructive... I'd rather use a few comments that'll rattle and perhaps make you think in another view than hear of greater expense and labour :D Feel free to egg me ! :thumleft:
|| S256SX Airwerks Powered MR2 Turbo || V10 BMW M5 ||
Kongaroo
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by Kongaroo »

You do get a quite a lot of enjoyment and a feeling of achievement when you have done the whole map yourself don't you?

65 pounds for an hour of dyno time with operator sounds really cheap - makes me wish I lived nearer to SRR!

Last time I hired dyno time for mapping my car it cost me about a hundred pounds including VAT for the hour for dyno with operator. That company (TB Turbo) has since gone into administration though, so I am on the look out for another one I can use in the Northwest where I can tweak my map (22psi road tuned) and get that all important 'official' power reading :lol:

Anyway nice going - also looking forward to seeing what your car is capable of in the future \:D/
Wingers
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Re: [Mk2] [Turbo] Rolling road results from today

Post by Wingers »

JJ wrote:....
With the same thoughts on your ignition of leaving it pretty much retarded... you should have taken this view with the fuelling and placed a considerable amount in at first, then start the leaning process.
...

Totally agree there mate and have to hold my hands up on that one.
I always intended to work exactly the way you suggested and I only realised it was still lean at the top end once the run was completed. :oops: Again I could go on about the lambda differences etc. etc. as means of an explaination but that's no excuse and I know that it's exactly the kind of mistake that could cost me an engine :shock:

All I can do now is scratch that down to experience and make sure I'm more in control next time.

Until I can prove one or other lambda sensor to be wrong I'll have to work to the worst case, and that's something that I didn't do well enough first time round.

Wingers
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