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KarlBristol




Joined: 02 Aug 2013
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Location: Bristol
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1991 Toyota MR2 Mk2 V6

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

alanmr2turbo wrote:
LOL you gotta laugh. People ranting about scammers yet wouldnt use PayPal to protect themselves against the scammers


If this is aimed at me I think you might need to re-read some of the older posts in this thread - I do use PayPal and I will re-iterate - I haven't been scammed before and due to the nature of my work I am very careful with who I trade with and what I do with my personal details.

There's no ranting going on. I think you mis-understand. This is a discussion with people trying to improve the system and help other users who might not be as savvy with scammers (especially new users)

Systems change and develop not because they don't work but because there's sometimes a better way of doing things. That what we are discussing here - possible improvements.

Not everyone likes or wants to use PayPal for a variety of reasons.
Whilst I use it I wouldn't force it upon someone else.
The forum would loose a lot of business I fear if that was placed as a rule...
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alanmr2turbo




Joined: 28 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

KarlBristol wrote:
alanmr2turbo wrote:
LOL you gotta laugh. People ranting about scammers yet wouldnt use PayPal to protect themselves against the scammers


If this is aimed at me I think you might need to re-read some of the older posts in this thread - I do use PayPal and I will re-iterate - I haven't been scammed before and due to the nature of my work I am very careful with who I trade with and what I do with my personal details.

There's no ranting going on. I think you mis-understand. This is a discussion with people trying to improve the system and help other users who might not be as savvy with scammers (especially new users)

Systems change and develop not because they don't work but because there's sometimes a better way of doing things. That what we are discussing here - possible improvements.

Not everyone likes or wants to use PayPal for a variety of reasons.
Whilst I use it I wouldn't force it upon someone else.
The forum would loose a lot of business I fear if that was placed as a rule...


Nah, not aimed at anyone in particular.
If there are other systems that can virtually guarantee you would get you money back then please let me know of them.

How would the forum lose money though? They don't get any % of the sales and i'm sure people don't become members here just to sell.
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KarlBristol




Joined: 02 Aug 2013
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Location: Bristol
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1991 Toyota MR2 Mk2 V6

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

alanmr2turbo wrote:
How would the forum lose money though? They don't get any % of the sales and i'm sure people don't become members here just to sell.


I wasn't saying that the forum would loose money. I know its a non profit organization. By business I meant members - its probably poor grammar on my part, sorry.

I was trying to say that if people are forced to use Paypal inevitably some people wouldn't use the forum as some users won't use Paypal for whatever reason... (as we have already established)

I think you'd be surprised - some members do join here just to buy and/or sell. A key example of this, just a couple of days ago is this thread where someone has seen an item and joined the forum just to buy it:

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=166452
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KarlBristol




Joined: 02 Aug 2013
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Location: Bristol
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1991 Toyota MR2 Mk2 V6

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

alanmr2turbo wrote:
If there are other systems that can virtually guarantee you would get you money back then please let me know of them.


I'm not sure of their exact policies regarding refunds but there are literally 1000s of other companies that offer exactly the same service as Paypal...

www.atmcash.com
www.xoom.com
www.moneygram.com
www.etransfer.com
www.westernunion.com
www.money2anywhere.com

etc etc...
People use a whole variety of payment methods including bank transfers, cash, cheques, etc...

I was just trying to think of how the forum could help keep members as safe as possible. Maybe providing ID upon sign up would deter scammers and allow for civil cases to be opened if you were unable to regain you money via other means (such as Paypal)


[thumleft]
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alanmr2turbo




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Western union and moneygram the scammers favourite pay sites.

At least you could have said proven good sites like Nochex or moneybookers.
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KarlBristol




Joined: 02 Aug 2013
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Location: Bristol
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1991 Toyota MR2 Mk2 V6

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

alanmr2turbo wrote:
Western union and moneygram the scammers favourite pay sites.

At least you could have said proven good sites like Nochex or moneybookers.


I was just giving the example that there are other payment sites out there other than Paypal.

I was giving a quick example for prove a point, not a comprehensive list of sites which I would or wouldn't trust. I investigate major frauds day in and day out so I do know scammers favorite sites thank you.

There's no need to get petty about which exact sites I illustrated my point with.
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alanmr2turbo




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

You investigate major fraud day in day out? Yet you post up the top 2 methods used by scammers worldwide and have been for years. [d'oh!]

Well obviously there is no changing your mind on proven companies that provide a great service for a small stake.

I'll stick with PayPal and Nochex [thumleft]
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KarlBristol




Joined: 02 Aug 2013
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Location: Bristol
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1991 Toyota MR2 Mk2 V6

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

alanmr2turbo wrote:
You investigate major fraud day in day out? Yet you post up the top 2 methods used by scammers worldwide and have been for years. [d'oh!]

Well obviously there is no changing your mind on proven companies that provide a great service for a small stake.

I'll stick with PayPal and Nochex [thumleft]


You clearly don't read anything that I write. Either that or you are trolling to the n'th degree. Either way its rather frustrating so let me repeat myself and write a little more in the hope that you finally understand...

Yes - I am a Police Officer. This is well known on the forum.
Yes I investigate major frauds.

If you read my last post I was just quickly posting up a few different sites which offer a similar service to Paypal. I was not advocating that any of the users on here use any particular site.

If you read my last post you know I wasn't listing a comprehensive list of payment sites which I would or wouldn't use. I was illistrating a point. I was not saying that any of these sites were either more or less safe than eBay.

Once again if you read any of my posts you would know that I use Paypal and that I trust it. I have no issue with paypal, and so there is no reason to change my mind on that.

Use whichever payment site you want. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.

You seem to have completely taken this thread off of topic and have not actually posted any constructive ideas. I am trying to think of and encourage other users to think of ways to improve the site and make it safer for all of the users.

If you don't have anything useful to say then don't say anything at all. You clearly don't read any of the responses anyway [Brick wall]
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jack-p




Joined: 19 May 2009
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1999 Toyota MR2 Mk2 NA Rev5

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

This is all getting a bit irreverent for a thread that I thought held some relative points and made a good discussion.
Maybe time to stop finding things to pick out in order to win arguments that are unnecessarily developing and get back on topic.
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alanmr2turbo




Joined: 28 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

i wouldn't say i have taken this off topic.

Go back to page 1 and read the first few replies. Stick by those and no matter who you are you wont get scammed. Its that simple.

It's just people who don't have or ever want to uses sites like PayPal that are making it hard on here.

If people don't believe in or ever want to use sites like PayPal because they actual charge you for using the service they offer. [Shocked] Naughty them then expect to get scammed one day.

Ask the who ever takes payments for joining here how many people pay via PayPal and how many pay by other means. I would be highly surprised if it was less then 95% who pay via PayPal.

So how do you then figure this forum would lose business if 95% of the people use PayPal?

The only people i have seen scammed on here are people that have paid by bank transfer or paying as a gift trying to save a couple of quid.

Sorry, but those people have just been walking the tight rope to long.
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Tsia




Joined: 23 Sep 2011
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Location: Milton Keynes
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1995 Toyota MR2 Mk2 Turbo Rev3

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

alanmr2turbo wrote:

Sorry, but those people have just been walking the tight rope to long.


Yeah! Punish those that don't use PayPal! [Rolling Eyes]
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jack-p




Joined: 19 May 2009
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1999 Toyota MR2 Mk2 NA Rev5

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Okay are you saying that your suggestion would be to make the forum paypal or cash only? Putting aside the people who don't like using paypal it would stop scamming IF you could actually make it a forum rule but I can't see how you'd be able to tell people how they have to pay for things. There's also the problem this was to be enforced as a club rule that certain members have already stated they don't like using paypal... perhaps a similar recommended transfer service as a secondary option.
I don't really see this being something that could set up in a way that would work though, you'd have to finalize through the forum and be transferred to paypal to pay exactly like ebay does.
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alanmr2turbo




Joined: 28 Nov 2007
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Location: Birmingham
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

jack-p wrote:
Okay are you saying that your suggestion would be to make the forum paypal or cash only? Putting aside the people who don't like using paypal it would stop scamming IF you could actually make it a forum rule but I can't see how you'd be able to tell people how they have to pay for things. There's also the problem this was to be enforced as a club rule that certain members have already stated they don't like using paypal... perhaps a similar recommended transfer service as a secondary option.
I don't really see this being something that could set up in a way that would work though, you'd have to finalize through the forum and be transferred to paypal to pay exactly like ebay does.


Yes i would say club rule PayPal or Cash on collection only. Or if i had to use another merchant i'd go for Nochex followed by Moneybookers.

Yes it might upset a few people making this rule but that is just life. You cant please everyone but the majority always wins in a vote.

Either way i would put a complete stop to Bank Transfers or Gift payments. I know this would not stop people paying by this method but then that their look out, just dont moan when you have been done over.

The way i see it is, The forum would be more hard hit by people hearing its used by scammers than a few people moaning about being forced to pay via PayPal or cash.

Ask yourself, would you wish to join a forum knowing their are scammers on there.
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KarlBristol




Joined: 02 Aug 2013
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Location: Bristol
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1991 Toyota MR2 Mk2 V6

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

alanmr2turbo wrote:
Ask yourself, would you wish to join a forum knowing their are scammers on there.


Scammers are everywhere and on every forum. That's life.
I joined this forum knowing that there would be unscrupulous members on here. That doesn't mean that its a bad forum, it means that there is a wide cross-section of society that uses it and is to be expected on any large open forum. I would suggest that if you joined any forum thinking that everyone was friendly and lovely it would be a little short sighted.

You will never get rid of all the scammers from any forum.
Knowing that there are scammers using a site isn't going to stop you joining. However showing that your trying to improve security or aid your members will give confidence to those who wish to join.

Its bad to say but you want to make another forum look more attractive to a scammer than this one. The way to do this is to make it harder to get money from users on this site, this can be done by a variety of methods, be that by educating members, asking for id, enforcing paypal payments, etc... This thread is about trying to gain new ideas to help on this front.

We all know that we are talking about a very very small minority or people affected by this. That doesn't make it right or legal.
Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean that you should turn your back on the issue. The forum won't improve or expand without new ideas and new members.

Lets try and give those members confidence in the site and help them [thumleft]
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jack-p




Joined: 19 May 2009
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1999 Toyota MR2 Mk2 NA Rev5

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

alanmr2turbo wrote:

Ask yourself, would you wish to join a forum knowing their are scammers on there.

That right there is exactly the point of this discussion as I see it.

I think with a secondary transfer service for people who don't like paypal pretty much everybody should be okay with the options available.

The problem with this idea is, how could it possibly be enforced? Saying it's a forum rule would make no difference because you'd still get people messaging you offering to sell it a little cheaper if it's paypal as gift or bank transfer etc. and the less savvy amongst us seem to be the ones falling victim to this.
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alanmr2turbo




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

I have told you how to improve and stamp out scammers. Apart from the way i have said, using one of the well known Merchants i can't see any other way of stopping it. [Think]

Unless, someone on here was a go between but then that would cost even more than my method. Plus he could then turn out to be a scammer after a while [Laughing]
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alanmr2turbo




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

jack-p wrote:
alanmr2turbo wrote:

Ask yourself, would you wish to join a forum knowing their are scammers on there.

That right there is exactly the point of this discussion as I see it.

I think with a secondary transfer service for people who don't like paypal pretty much everybody should be okay with the options available.

The problem with this idea is, how could it possibly be enforced? Saying it's a forum rule would make no difference because you'd still get people messaging you offering to sell it a little cheaper if it's paypal as gift or bank transfer etc. and the less savvy amongst us seem to be the ones falling victim to this.


It cant really be enforced without people sticking together. If people were to pm you asking you to pay as a gift them they should be reported and warned, the 2nd time they ask, ban them.

As a seller it makes now difference as he'll still get taken for the 4% either by PayPal or the buyer trying to save a little. So its only the buyer that gets the deal. Any seller that asks for it to be sent as a gift sounds alarm bells to me.

I have put a few for sale things up on here last month or so. I have given a price and that price is what you pay, none of this gift or +4% paypal fees.

Work out the price you want and list it that way.
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Tsia




Joined: 23 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

As a perfect example of what we've been discussing :

I have my laptop for sale on Gumtree at the minute. I had an email asking if the 'item' is still for sale (very vague) - when I replied to say that the 'item' is still for sale, keeping in mind I say on the advert that I will post it for ?20, they tell me they will give me ?30 to post the 'item' to their partner in London and that they'll pay the full amount via PayPal.

I'd bet that if I went through with this, they'd try and claim for some fake reason and get their cash back because for the seller, that's just how PayPal works. [Confused]


Edit : Replies were within 30 seconds to 1 minute when they were trying to arrange postage, I offered to post it by hand and asked for the address and I haven't had a reply at all now. Waiting on this response. [Laughing]
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alanmr2turbo




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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

Tsia wrote:
As a perfect example of what we've been discussing :

I have my laptop for sale on Gumtree at the minute. I had an email asking if the 'item' is still for sale (very vague) - when I replied to say that the 'item' is still for sale, keeping in mind I say on the advert that I will post it for ?20, they tell me they will give me ?30 to post the 'item' to their partner in London and that they'll pay the full amount via PayPal.

I'd bet that if I went through with this, they'd try and claim for some fake reason and get their cash back because for the seller, that's just how PayPal works. [Confused]


Yes, you could be done over as the Parcel would have to be sent out to the Registered PayPal address to be covered by PayPal. This is stated in their Terms and Conditions.
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Tsia




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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Reply with quote including images

alanmr2turbo wrote:
Tsia wrote:
As a perfect example of what we've been discussing :

I have my laptop for sale on Gumtree at the minute. I had an email asking if the 'item' is still for sale (very vague) - when I replied to say that the 'item' is still for sale, keeping in mind I say on the advert that I will post it for ?20, they tell me they will give me ?30 to post the 'item' to their partner in London and that they'll pay the full amount via PayPal.

I'd bet that if I went through with this, they'd try and claim for some fake reason and get their cash back because for the seller, that's just how PayPal works. [Confused]


Yes, you could be done over as the Parcel would have to be sent out to the Registered PayPal address to be covered by PayPal. This is stated in their Terms and Conditions.


Aware and this has been offered, it was simply ignored. [Very Happy]

I thought I'd play with their emails a bit though. [Wink]
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