MR2 GTS Turbo Vs Honda Civic Type R

[biscuitsbrown]

Hello everyone, thought I'd just tell you about my encounter with a new shape Honda civic type R on the way back from buyin my oil this afternoon!

I've seen this car around my area a few times but always when I've been on foot and no matter how hard I tried, I always lost!?

However today I was in my car on the way home and after overtaking a slow moving vehicle came up behind said Type R. Have to admit it was a nice lookin car, jet black with the lexus style tail lights, 4" or so stainless steel exhaust and private plate! Not sure whether its engine is standard or not, spose you can make up your own mind after hearing the outcome!!

I was behind him as we came to a roundabout and we both slowed down to about 30, me being in 2nd gear ready for the other side of the 'O'. The exit of the 'O' had a slight left bend which lasted about 200 metres so we left the exit and both nailed it!!

I could see his front end twitching as we came round the slight bend, and i was prayin that my back end would hold tight as the road was wet and the temp outside was about 5 degs C with the odd snow and rain flurry!

Anyway, my back end stuck solid and I was hot on his tail. Into 3rd, gaining on him very slightly then into 4th!! Could tell he was flooring it cos I could actually hear his exhaust over mine it was that load!

I was just about passing 5500 rpm in 4th and at this point he wasn't pulling away but to be totally honest I wasn't really gaining on him any more! It was at this point where we both had to brake for traffic ahead!!

Got to the next 'O' and he turned off whereas I went straight on, gave him a flash and a wave but no reply!! Either he was a bit grumpy or didn't notice me flash him, I'm sure it was the latter after all, he had a bit of a play in the first place right!?!

So to be honest there wasn't really much in it at all! I was gaining very slightly 2nd and 3rd gear but 4th we were pretty much neck and neck!! I guess that would be about right. Mine is stock apart from the exhaust and Air induction (still got the cat which doesn't help) so I guess I'm only around 225 fillies! I had a little look on the Honda site and these are the Type R's stats:

Type
DOHC i-VTEC

Displacement (cc)
1998

Maximum power (PS @ rpm)
200@7400

Maximum torque (Nm @ rpm)
196@5900

Maximum torque (lb-ft @ rpm)
145@5900

6 speed manual

Performance

Maximum speed (mph)
146

Acceleration 0-62 mph (secs)
6.6

Kerb weight (kg)
1204

Tyres
205/45R17

I guess with it being slightly lighter, a few less fillies but I-VTEC means its probably a good little challenger to a stock Turbo!!

Anyway thats the end of my little story for today, hope you enjoyed it, hopefully have some more for you soon!

All the best Stu

[The Morris]

I had a 106 Gti with 160BHP. took the TypeR for a test drive and was dissapointed it wasnt any quicker. When i got my MR2 it was miles quicker than my 106, so i surprised you werent quicker. Although apparently the right exhaust gives that car 20 BHP which would make him about the same as you, but you should have more torque.

[Sidewinder]

The VTEC engines rock! I've got one in my Accord, and she can certainly move when the revs climb. 150-odd horsepower, so not too dissimilar to a Rev 1 N/A.

The Civic Type Rs are nice cars anyway, IMHO, but you've really got to rev the nuts off them to really get anything out of them.

[Nelo]

From a rolling start the Type R is just about as quick as a standard turbo since it's far lighter and in the conditions you describe would definitely favour him since it's pretty difficult as you know to drive a tubby fast in bad conditions and generally I don't mess if the conditions don't permit it.

Better to lose and live to fight another day I reckon.

I'm just building an EG Civic 2.2 VTEC as a street sleeper and trackday weapon myself. Basically it's going to be a black 92 Hatchback Civic with no flash crap on the outside. Honda Hubcaps, standard exhaust etc but it'll be stripped on the inside with just 2 front seats, 200hp and bucket loads of torque!

Can't wait to finish it!!

[DeusMR2]

Get that boost up to 15PSI and youre sorted

[Sidewinder]

I'm just building an EG Civic 2.2 VTEC as a street sleeper and trackday weapon myself. Basically it's going to be a black 92 Hatchback Civic with no flash crap on the outside. Honda Hubcaps, standard exhaust etc but it'll be stripped on the inside with just 2 front seats, 200hp and bucket loads of torque!

Can't wait to finish it!!

Nice one! That'll be a head-turner (performance wise) when completed, as well as a surprise to the competition.

[biscuitsbrown]

For those of you that saw my thread ref. fuel economy, you may want to look away now as I'm gonna do some more geeky calculations to see just how similar the Turbo and Type R are!!

MR2 GTS Turbo 12/92: 221bhp 224lb/ft @ 1270kg 5- speed

Civic Type R i-VTEC: 200bhp 145lb/ft @ 1204kg 6- speed

Turbo: 0.174 bhp per kg = 174 bhp per metric tonne.

Typr R: 0.166 bhp per kg = 166 bhp per metric tonne.

Turbo: 0.176 lb/ft per kg = 176 lb/ft per metric tonne.

Type R: 0.120 lb/ft per kg = 120 lb/ft per metric tonne.

So in summary there's 8 bhp and 56 lb/ft power/torque to weight between them. I guess thats 1 point to the turbo!

Then of course there's the aspiration, forced induction vs N/A. So thats lag vs no lag. Thats 1 point to the 'R'.

Then there's 5 - speed manual vs 6 - speed manual! 1 point to the 'R'

Finally there's age vs beauty! The almost brand new Type R vs the old but beautiful Turbo! I think thats 1 more point to the 'R'

In summary thats Turbo: 1
Type R: 3

There you have it, I've just proven mathamatically that I should have lost!!?!

Keep your opinions coming, they all count!

Regards Stu. Ps I know I know, I need to get out more before you say it!!

[screech]

Then of course there's the aspiration, forced induction vs N/A. So thats lag vs no lag. Thats 1 point to the 'R'.

type r's have to be held above 5k rpm otherwise they don't have much power, so that's worse lag than a turbo, turbos have pretty much no lag, so i certainly wouldn't say a car with power up that high is better than a turbo

Then there's 5 - speed manual vs 6 - speed manual! 1 point to the 'R'

why is having 1 extra gear better? my dad has a 6 speed passat, my sister a 5 speed, on acceleration the 5 speed wins every time, 6th gear is a cruising gear, which ain't so great esp in a civic where you'll have to drop down to get power back!

Finally there's age vs beauty! The almost brand new Type R vs the old but beautiful Turbo! I think thats 1 more point to the 'R'

you what? the civic isn't exactly a nice looking car, it's an oddball looking hatchback!! you only giving it the point because it's new? in which case a cityrover is better than an mk2 mr2!!

[Terry]

type r's have to be held above 5k rpm otherwise they don't have much power, so that's worse lag than a turbo, turbos have pretty much no lag, so i certainly wouldn't say a car with power up that high is better than a turbo

Thats not totally true, with the new I-Vtec you dont get the hard powerband that you get with the older DOHC-Vtec. The PCM is constantly changing valve lift and valve timing to output maximum efficiency at every given RPM and load.

why is having 1 extra gear better? my dad has a 6 speed passat, my sister a 5 speed, on acceleration the 5 speed wins every time, 6th gear is a cruising gear, which ain't so great esp in a civic where you'll have to drop down to get power back!

Because the K20 cant give out the amount of torque you would like, Honda put in a lower ratio transmission to enable the car to excellerate quicker. Thus improving low down response rather than cruising speeds. This results in the car being pretty responsive at almost all rpms in most gears.

you what? the civic isn't exactly a nice looking car, it's an oddball looking hatchback!! you only giving it the point because it's new? in which case a cityrover is better than an mk2 mr2!!

Point made, its looks are not shall we say, up to standard.

[biscuitsbrown]

Thanks Terry, you saved me a long type there!! However......

Quote:
Finally there's age vs beauty! The almost brand new Type R vs the old but beautiful Turbo! I think thats 1 more point to the 'R'


you what? the civic isn't exactly a nice looking car, it's an oddball looking hatchback!! you only giving it the point because it's new? in which case a cityrover is better than an mk2 mr2!!

I think you've both misunderstood that one!!! I said age vs beauty, I didn't say OLD vs beauty!! I'm saying that the Type R is NEW and therefore gonna be a fresh engine whereas the old but BEAUTIFUL Turbo is gonna be a little bit more tired and possibly not giving out as many horses as it should!!! Now do you see where I'm coming from!

I agree though, the R is not even in the same league as the Turbo for looks!!

[pizza boy]

You should have won imo. EP type Rs are great cars but dont have the torque I know this simply because two of my m8s have em. You should really RR your car to make sure alls well with it.

[biscuitsbrown]

I think you're probably right Pizza! I really wanna get it rolling roaded! I'm away from today for 3 weeks but there's a rolling road day soon in Scotland so I'm hoping to go to that if I'm back in time!!

Regards and happy driving Stu

[Graeme Shaw]

One of these had a go at me while back.
Coming off a roundabout up a slip rd on to a motorway.
I didnt even see you scream up behind me and was in 4th gear, i dropped to 3rd and pasted him.
That not that quick!

Graeme

[Hedgehog Dodger]

Torqeless racers as standard, but once you get some forced Induction on there, they can shift.

Quick cars, and the only 'Hot Hatch' I would ever consider to buy! Forget your French/German rubbish. JAP is taking over

[shafster]

get it decatted mate, the difference will be amazing. the turbo will spool up faster and it will run into the redline much more freely. this will free up some extra power needed to slightly outrun the type r as well as turning up the boost to 15 psi.

[ryan]

I drove my mates Type R and was disappointed by the lack of torque. I had to rev the nuts off it and keep it in the 6.5-8.5k area to get any decent forward movement. In fact it was worse than turbo lag, because when the magic of the vtec did arrive it only lasted a few seconds then a change up was needed, and the power released at said revs was no great shakes I can tell you. Compared to my rev 3 with 250ish bhp/230lb/ft , I know which i'd prefer. saying that the car did feel more alert and 'on the ball', hell, I had it wheelspin in 3rd!
As for extra power, the decent induction costs 600 quid! Adding only around 10-15bhp if I remember rightly. My mate is looking at spending up to 1k on his, but I advised him to save up a bit longer and get that supercharger put on, it is about 3.5K though

Don't get me wrong, its a fast car, and it will hold its own against a tubby once on the move, just not my cuppa tea thats all, now the DC5 or S2000, well thats a different story, but still lacking in torque!

[Cliff]

My last car was a 2003 Type R which I was very happy with, (except for the water based paint which was very easily stone chipped), and I only sold it due to plans to purchase my first house, which is why I'm planning to buy an MR2 Turbo.

Their are loads of rumours about the EP3 Type R having no torque lower down the rev range, but coming from an ex-owner, I can assure you that, although the figures suggest otherwise, when driving the car it just doesn't feel true.

The car pulled all the way through the rev range before the rev limiter kicked in at 8800 RPM.
From 6500 RPM, iVTEC kicked in and if the change wasn't done at the correct time, the car will drop out of VTEC range, I guess just like dropping off boost? Yes, it was something you had to get the hang off, but once done correctly, it left a very satisfied smile on my face. .

However, as mentioned previously, a bit of a twitchy rear end for a front wheel drive car whilst cornering.
It doesn't have as much torque as a Turbo'd car, but a very capable N/A car nonetheless (197bhp) and 0-60 in 6.4 seconds, which is why I'm a bit surprised you didn't whoop its ar$e, unless it was heavily modified as its hard to tune the Type R because Honda has squeezed near enough all you can out of it, unless you bolt on a Supercharger or Turbo as an Induction Kit and Exhaust will hardly get you anywhere!!

[Patrick Gray]

are the vtecs not in actual fact very tunable for an N/A tuned car.I think its a common misconception that Honda have sqeezed so much power out of it already.I know of a ctr which has been rolling roaded at 229 bhp with just a spoon exhaust,decat,carbon induction kit and spoon throttle body.Thats a 32bhp gain from quite simple mods.

[Cliff]

Quite simple, but very expensive mods as mentioned above. Even a decent induction kit, i.e. mugen, would cost easily over £600!

Wouldn't the mods you mentioned above give more than 32bhp for a turbo'd car?

[Patrick Gray]

i agree you would probably get a few more bhp on a turbo car with the above mentioned mods but the power gain from these mods is very impressive for an N/A tuned car.You have to take into consideration that alot of N/A cars actually lose power with mods like these.